A response to JK Rowling

[Hjft]

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

• [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]

@Hjft

"I am not a man. I am not a woman. So I must be a TW! Is that what you'd say. Does that make me your enemy?"

You're biologically a man and, from what you say, you identify as a transwoman. I'm curious as to what you think makes you the enemy. Or indeed why Mumsnet was the first place you thought of posting a rebuttal to JKR.

All this could be solved if men were more tolerant of feminine men. Plenty men chant trans women are women because they don’t want trans women in their space. They can’t accept them as men who are different. They won’t sleep with trans women or date them, so they know they aren’t women, but they also don’t think they are man enough to be considered male. Surely men just have to accept not all men are the same? Is it any different to men bullying gay men because they are don’t fit their idea of a man?

Utter bollocks! (Pun intended)

Aside but I really sympathize with people on the autism spectrum in all of this, because being expected to lie is extra hard for them. And also for any parent trying to wrangle a small child who's in "but that's a man, mummy" mode and get themselves and the child out of the situation without anyone punching them in the name of being kind and inclusive.

I get that you don't feel like a man. I don't know what you were brought up to believe it means to "be a man" but whatever it was, I believe you don't feel you are that.

I can see how that would result in mental health problems for you. If it helps you to be happy by presenting as a stereotypical woman and thinking of yourself as "being a woman", whatever it is that you believe that entails, then I wish you well.

I draw the line at you saying everyone else MUST act exactly like you are actually a woman rather than just humouring you. I object to attempt to bring this into law.

If some people (probably men) are horrid to you because you don't conform to their idea of manhood then that should be tackled. No GRC will stop those men hating you and physically attacking you any more than laws against rape have stopped any women being raped.

I get that you want to hide from those men in the spaces women created to protect themselves from such men. I can see how you would want that very much indeed.

Nevertheless the women are saying no. If you want protection from bad men you have to find a different way.

Women's prisons are separate from men's for a reason. Same for hospital wards and rugby teams. There are lots of vulnerable males, including ones like you. They are all excluded from male-free environments past the age of about 7.

I wish you luck in creating spaces where males like you can be happy and safe.

You seeing a women's space you like the look of, deciding to appropriate it and exhorting women to be kind and give you what you want, is a very male thing to do.

Your privilege is showing.

All this could be solved if men were more tolerant of feminine men.

This! My DH is sometimes "misgendered" because he has long, pretty hair. Someone said just that a few weeks back when we were queuing to get into a shop, called us both "ladies" and then corrected herself when she got a better look and apologized with a ramble about how flowing and lovely it is. Women never get aggro with him when they get his sex wrong, it just turns into "wow your hair is so pretty" most of the time. Because women are not the problem when it comes to gender nonconformity and punishing people for it in scary physical ways, men are. So why should women be collectively punished for men's refusal to accept and treat kindly other men who're more feminine than they're comfortable with?

I just want to be me, and not to upset others, or get hurt myself. I just want to feel safe.

I think you would find that the vast majority of posters here, and the vast majority of women in general want you to be safe and feel safe. Because women know what it means to not be safe.

I think most people here would sympathise with the fact you feel discomfort in your own skin. That's a horrible thing to experience. Many women, for example, experience anorexia or body dysmorphia or they self-harm having experienced abuse so can empathise.

I think most people here would support you in wanting to be yourself too, whatever that means to you, whether you like clothing that is traditionally seen as feminine or you want to experiment with make-up or whatever. Life would be boring if we were all the same and gender critical feminists don't like gender stereotypes. We see them as harmful. Knock yourself out with expressing yourself in a way that feels right for you.

What we don't want is men in our spaces, men saying they are literally women just because they feel they are one, men saying being a woman isn't about biology and that trans women are far more oppressed than women. There are plenty of trans people who get along with feminists just fine - it is possible to be allies and have mutual respect. We are not your enemy, we just want to protect ourselves and be listened to. There are women on here who have also experienced gender dysphoria or they have children who live with it - we are not just one type of person who is out to get you.

There is a considerable risk of accepting adult transgender women into women only spaces without the sex assignment surgery. But what about the under 16 transgender girls?

Sexual predators are predominantly male and telling under 16 transgender girls to use male only spaces is a recipe for disaster. They become easy targets for sexual predators to assault and rape them. Before you say they can't be raped because they are male bodied, they can as there are no markers saying transgender male bodied girl, a sexual predator will think girl as gone into the wrong space and you know.

I believe that under 16 transgender girls should able to use female only spaces to keep them safe from harm.

accepted by society as freely as BAME and Gay people

I find that really insulting and I am neither BAME or Gay.

^^This.

I am not Gay, but am BAME (black woman) and find it insulting.

And as a woman I support JK's fight to not have the voices and rights of women eroded. You can't fight for equality at the expense and safety of women.

I'm just a person 'born male'

We knew you were male the moment you said that biological sex had no impact on day to day interactions. That’s simply not true for anyone born female - it’s because males are the ‘default’ human, regardless of their personal gender expression.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/24/why-does-medicine-treat-women-like-men

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/23/truth-world-built-for-men-car-crashes

No one here wishes harm on trans people, but a male with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is not the same as a female person, and they shouldn’t be conflated in law or in medicine.

We are constantly told that feminism should be ‘intersectional’ - why isn’t transactivism told to be intersectional too? Do you believe that female people deserve protection in law?

The only reason distinct women’s rights exist Is because female bodies are different to male bodies. Not all female people have babies, but every baby comes out of a female person.

Good point @TheProdigalKittensReturn. As an aside, I only read the first couple of chapters of The Ickabog, but couldn't miss the description of the king with his flowing velvet gowns and beautiful ruffled shirts ("because that's what men like to wear back then".) I'm paraphrasing but you get the idea

In normal life, whether someone is biologically male or female is irrelevant for most interactions, but is of major significance to a transperson. It's only becomes a real issue when someone looks like a trans person.

Should be irrelevant for most interactions. In reality though, not for women.

I believe that under 16 transgender girls should able to use female only spaces to keep them safe from harm.

Under 16 year old female people (girls) are not a human shield for male people (boys).

Neither are adult women. My son was bigger and stronger than me by the age of 12, for starters.

Besides, that goes two ways. My biologically female 13 year old stepchild currently identifies as a boy, and clearly sending her to change in the boys changing room is so absurd it destroys your entire safety-based premise.

The only answer for safety for ALL is third spaces. Female people, Male people and individual lockable spaces for those who do not feel safe changing with people of their own sex.

(Like disabled spaces, but additional. Disabled spaces should be left for those who need them)

Re the "no difference", I've never worn a car seatbelt that wasn't uncomfortable. This is because "short with large breasts" is not the body type they're designed for. Bet they fit the OP just fine though and thus would be on the "sex makes no difference" list.

@Hjft

Can I ask you something. If I spend a day with my friend, a transperson. I would call them whatever pronouns they would like me to, I would accept however they dressed, I wouldn't care whether anything was altered or not underneath their clothing or what medicines they were currently taking. Say we chat. Have a coffee. Then go to a spa and we need to put on our swimming costumes. So we split and I go into one changing room and she goes into another. Why is that so terrible? I mean really, why?
It's exactly how I would spend the day if the other person was my husband. We would split and get changed separately.
We don't think male/female sex changing rooms are bad because we're used to them. But when my husband goes left and I go right to get changed its based on the fact men are a threat. It's not nice that that's the reality of the world we live in or that 'good men' get lumped in with it but it's gets barely a thought in today's society. I've never known anyone (male or female) upset by this. Inconvenienced at worst.
I see a future with third spaces (or however many it would take for transpeople to feel safe) where no one is upset by this because the general understanding is it is safer for everyone to group them as such. Just as it is now. Is that really such a brutal awful solution?
If I felt like it one day I'd probably carry on into the gender neutral if that was judged to be a safe option. Other times like when I needed to peel my swimsuit off my battered post-partum body and breastfeed my crying baby I'd probably prefer to do that in a female space. Or if I was feeling particularly shaky about my history of rape at that time.
Is it really so unacceptable? Or is it just that change and creating these spaces is hard? (And women know this, they had to make them). Does it invalidate everything about a person to be treated on their biology in some very specific instincts, whilst being accepted the rest of the time? I'd really like to hear a trans person's thoughts on this or someone who suffers with gender dysphoria. Very happy to be educated and am coming from a place of kindness and understanding of what it is like to feel vulnerable.

Before you say they can't be raped because they are male bodied

I don't think I have ever, ever seen that stated anywhere? Of course male people can be raped.

So you are fine with male people using female spaces until the age of 16 then?

Its a weird situation, of course I want 'transgender girls' to be safe, I want everyone to be safe. But I really do feel the answer is if male people don't want to use male areas because men...men need to be more tolerant, and in the meantime maybe another unisex option could be added to the current male/female areas.

You seeing a women's space you like the look of, deciding to appropriate it and exhorting women to be kind and give you what you want, is a very male thing to do.

^^This, every time. A person says they are a woman, then when challenged reverts to male aggression and bullying to get what they want. It is about conditioning and male privilege. You can't be a female and have male privilege and a penis

I believe that under 16 transgender girls should able to use female only spaces to keep them safe from harm.

Because any other under 16 boy is safe from harm in a male space?

I think male rooms are going to once everyone who could be threatened has moved to the ladies.

I believe that under 16 transgender girls should able to use female only spaces to keep them safe from harm.

That's a nice thought.

But unpack it a little more.

Are females and their spaces there to protect vulnerable males? Because gay males under 16 are very vulnerable. BAME males under 16 may feel vulnerable in many circumstances. Disabled males under 16, particularly those with learning difficulties. There are many, many male children under 16- and males of all ages - who are vulnerable.

Should those people be better protected? Yes. Absolutely. How do we add spaces to ensure no one has to be vulnerable and frightened when they need to undress outside their home?

Are female people on this planet to caretake for males who are vulnerable? Isn't that what you imply here? That females are support humans and their spaces are the nursing stations for them to care and protect? What does that say about how you perceive female people?

Many female people require female only spaces. Which should be there to serve vulnerable females. It is ok to provide for females, they're as deserving and human as anyone else.

The answer to all of this, the easy answer, is third mixed sex spaces. Many women will be happy to use them, many women will be lucky enough to have the privilege to never think twice about using them, and we can make them as safe and inclusive and dads taking children to the loo and vulnerable teenaged friendly as possible. That's inclusion. Inclusion is adding. Inclusion is better fitting.

What does not work is taking away facilities and provision for female people and reallocating it to more important male humans, so they have wider choice, freedom, safety, happiness, all the things that female humans apparently don't deserve.

I just want to be me, and not to upset others, or get hurt myself. I just want to feel safe.

You want that safety for you to come at the expense of the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls and the barring of women and girls who absolutely cannot, for religious or vulnerability reasons, use spaces set aside for the FEMALE SEX that include those of the MALE SEX.

Just like those violent TRA's and misogynists threatening and shouting abuse at JKR you care not one iota for women and their rights and freedoms, it's all about you and what you want and how you feel and you wonder why the posters here pegged you as male from the off.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

Re the "no difference", I've never worn a car seatbelt that wasn't uncomfortable. This is because "short with large breasts" is not the body type they're designed for. Bet they fit the OP just fine though and thus would be on the "sex makes no difference" list.

God yes. This boils my piss. I'm not a short female (5'7) and even in my current VW Polo, what you'd consider a small car, the seat belt at it's lowest setting on the adjuster, it cuts right across the side of my neck. Right. Across. My. Neck. In a bad accident, it'll probably behead me. My husband has to raise it significantly for it not to tuck under his armpit, and he's only 3 inches taller than me. Where are you OP? Are you bloody listening yet?

Women aren't human shields.

I too agree that it's a male problem. Being a man who feels happier living and presenting as a woman is part of the male experience because it is a man doing it. Just as a female finding peace living and presenting as a man is part of the female experience.
Men need to accept this and all bits of gender non-conformity in-between without concluding it makes the other person not male/ripe for abuse and violence. Men need to sort themeselves out.
I do recognise though that this also applies to violence against girls. Men need to sort themeselves out. But until that magical time it's safer for women to have separated spaces in some instances and I think transpeople should have the same as we're clearly not at a stage where they are accepted unthinkingly in male spaces and left in peace.