Churchill to Hitler

[Pinkkgaga]

So it’s trending on Twitter that people are comparing Churchill to Hitler and saying he was just as bad.
Absolutely disgusting imo, but I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on it.

The original European racism was anti-semitism that was expressed in religious terms. That's where Shakespeare is coming from with Othello and Shylock.

There is no antisemitism in Othello. Othello is a black Christian.

The prejudice against him is racial, not religious.

^Even now, now, very now, an old black ram
Is tupping your white ewe.^

Because we come to do you service and you think we are ruffians, you'll have your daughter covered with a Barbary horse, you'll have your nephews neigh to you, you'll have coursers for cousins and jennets for germans.

The end result of the delayed election was that my late DF didn't get his first vote until he was 28. I got my first vote at 19.

Any Brits overseas in 2015 should really not have been surprised that they were invisible to the Tories then too.

Hansard: Extension of Permitted Period of Overseas Residence
House of Commons Debate 1989;

Mr.Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North)

"In a spirit of generosity, I tabled an amendment specifying 10 years. On reflection, I was probably a little too generous.I am sure that the Minister will be grateful for that and will accept my amendment."

"Twenty-five years is excessive in the extreme.People who have been resident abroad, working abroad, earning money abroad and probably not paying taxes abroad are not likely to be interested in politics in this country."

"The Government's motive is to find a pool of voting fodder for the Tory party in the tax havens around the world."

"They are not interested in democratic movements in this country, because they have set themselves up in some other country and earn their money there. My 10-year rule would allow those people who have working contracts abroad—for example, those in the diplomatic service—to maintain a link with this country I believe that a period of 25 years is quite ridiculous and, therefore, I commend my amendment to the House."

Both killed millions of people they considered less worthy of life than them. Doesn't matter if they had a lovely singing voice or were good to their mothers, they're both scumbags. HTH.

"The IRA were undertaking ethnic cleansing"

Give me strength, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever read here about Ireland's history, including "Don't we still own you" back in the brexit threads days.

Lots of things that were wrong were don in the past and are done today. All we can do is day to day in our lives try to be kind to others and treat them whoever they are with respect. All this harping back to the past is a bit pointless but I suppose people have tons of time on their hands as so many are being paid by the state on furlough while many of the rest of us are working full time and plenty working full time also are trying to look after toddlers at the same time.

I mean it would be nice if people didn’t think this stuff was in the past. The Belgian guy who was toppled had human zoos less than 60 years ago where small black children were paraded.
It’s this idea that this happened a ‘long time ago’ and we have all learned from this means that racial microaggressions continue to this day.

Agreed Rugger.

Wait until they go after Cromwell's statue in Westminster, the threads will be ridiculous.

The last human zoo was in 1958.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/16/belgium-comes-to-terms-with-human-zoos-of-its-colonial-past

I would argue that for the people of Congo it’s not ‘harping’ back to their past but a reminder of how their mothers and grandparents generation were paraded for European entertainment.
Mau Mau happened at the same time.
Apartheid ended in 1991.

The Civil Rights Act happened in 1968. People are pretending racial inequality stopped when slavery ended and we have all been happy and if only people were a bit ‘respectful’ all would be solved. That my friends, right there, is white privilege.

1968 was also the year of Enoch Powell’s ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech.

Yes, victims of torture in Kenya during the 1950s are still pursuing legal claims for compensation from the British government. This is not the past.

A few years back the British government had to pay compensation and apologise when the first group of Kenyan victims won their legal case. They had been subjected to extreme torture in detention camps, including amputations, castrations and rape.

And the documents from Mau Mau went missing and were destroyed so compensation couldn’t be claimed. An act of violence that saw not a single hand wringing post on MN.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes?fbclid=IwAR1RSVLL-CcaI8W9AVOE_AknGEwZQf3aMhBUlcbFXa_dSFmKCEoO6amrPX4

Until 1968 it was legal to say 'no coloured, no Irish' on rental adverts
Job adverts could say 'no coloured'

This is an interesting interview with the first person to bring a complaint under the 1968 law: eachother.org.uk/racism-1960s-britain/

Exactly ChaBishkoot

All this hand-wringing about erasing history -- the British government has destroyed or misplaced thousands and thousands of documents from the colonial era, including many that would allow victims to claim compensation.

At one point more than 1 million historic documents from the Foreign Office were being illegally withheld from public access, this was discovered in 2013.

We need a bit more cut n' paste about the overseas franchise.

Cameron (remember him?) promised to restore this. Yet somehow it wasn't really much of a priority, because by 2017 the Tory Manifesto was still promising to restore the franchise "We will legislate for votes for life for British overseas electors." (Conservative Party manifesto, Forward Together, May 2017, p.42)." It's still something they are pledged to do, but don't seem to be in any of a hurry about it.

But hey, let's carp on about what Corbyn (remember him too?) said eleven years ago in 1989, instead of actually enacting the pledge made in the Manifestos.

It's interesting that 20 years ago Churchill was voted "man of the millennium" (or whatever).

Did a lot of people vote without knowing all the facts ? And if so, what does that tell us about democracy in general ?

British Governments destroying records of their colonial atrocities? Sounds like the behaviour of the Nazis or the Stasi when their regimes were crumbling. Who would have thought there would be such parallels? [irony]

George Washington was a slave owner of course -

Two different reports of him here;

"Despite having been an active slave holder for 56 years, George Washington struggled with the institution of slavery and spoke frequently of his desire to end the practice. At the end of his life, Washington made the decision to free all his slaves in his 1799 will - the only slave-holding Founding Father to do so."

www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/slavery/ten-facts-about-washington-slavery/

"George Washington Used Legal Loopholes to Avoid Freeing His Slaves" -

"America’s first president was wealthy and powerful, and his possessions included false teeth, tricorne hats and nearly 150 slaves. George Washington owned slaves and relied on their labor—and, as Erica Armstrong Dunbar reports for the New York Times, he used legal loopholes to avoid freeing them even as Northern states worked to abolish slavery."

www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/george-washington-used-legal-loopholes-avoid-freeing-his-slaves-180954283/#:~:text=George%20Washington%20owned%20slaves%20and,states%20worked%20to%20abolish%20slavery.

@RuggerHug

"The IRA were undertaking ethnic cleansing"

Give me strength, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever read here about Ireland's history, including "Don't we still own you" back in the brexit threads days.

If you think it's stupid you are very ill-informed. It might have been a better use of your time to search for information rather than use ad hominem as a first resort.

The IRA targeted the eldest son of farming families and family businesses so that there would be no-one to inherit the business and the family would have to move away. This is a fact, whether it fits with your own agenda or not.

This article is from the Irish Independent, so you can't accuse it of Protestant bias. It describes a book written by Prof Henry Patterson of the University of Ulster on this subject. The former head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service is also quoted as describing the IRA campaign in border areas as 'ethnic cleansing'. If neither of these individuals meet your approval you may be judging them on factors other than their professional ability.

www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/jim-cusack-ira-engaged-in-ethnic-cleansing-of-protestants-along-border-29150363.html

Prof Patterson is quoted in the interview as saying: ""It's very common in literature on Northern Ireland and the Troubles to see it largely in terms of a dominant Protestant majority and a Catholic minority, but in the Border areas it was the Protestants who were in the minority and who suffered for it. It has been ignored in large part because it does not fit into the 'oppressive Protestants/oppressed Catholics' dichotomy."

Two examples from the book: ""On May 19, 1980, Jack McClenaghan, a 63-year-old Protestant, was shot dead while he was delivering bread in Garrison, Co Fermanagh. He had retired from the UDR four years before and was regarded by local Protestants and Catholics alike as a 'peace-loving and inoffensive man'.

Douglas Deering was the last Protestant shopkeeper in Rosslea, in south-east Fermanagh. He was not and never had been a member of the security forces. Married with three children he attended a Gospel hall in Clones. He was shot dead in his shop on May 12, 1978. His shop had been bombed four times by the time of his murder."

Please describe what you think is 'stupid' about this. And how it relates to Brexit.

@dreamingbohemian

Agreed Rugger.

Wait until they go after Cromwell's statue in Westminster, the threads will be ridiculous.

Please read what I wrote and then outline why you agree.

@RuggerHug

Can you also comment on the Darkley murders please and indicate whether you still think my point is 'stupid'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkley_killings

On the evening of Sunday 20 November, about sixty people were attending a church service at Mountain Lodge Pentecostal Church.[1] The small, isolated wooden church was outside the village of Darkley, near the border with the Republic of Ireland and several miles from Armagh. As the service began, three masked gunmen arrived,[1] at least one of whom was armed with a Ruger semi-automatic rifle and opened fire on those standing in the entrance. Three church elders were killed: Harold Browne (59), Victor Cunningham (39) and David Wilson (44).[1][5] The fatally-wounded Wilson staggered into the service, where he collapsed and died.[1] The gunmen then stood outside the building and sprayed it with bullets, wounding a further seven people,[1][6] before fleeing in a car.[4] The service was being tape-recorded when the attack took place. On the tape, the congregation can be heard singing the hymn, "Are You Washed in the Blood of the Lamb", followed by the sound of gunfire.[1] All of the victims were Protestant civilians.[1]

Churchill was racist. He's also dead. Same goes for Baden Powell, Queen Victoria and a million other historical figures. I understand that history is important when understanding why racism is still rife in this country today, but all these arguments do seem to be detracting from what needs to be done in the present day.

Peregrina

If it hadn't been for Corbyn's amendment in 1989, it might have been the 25 year rule for overseas franchise in 2016, not the 15 year rule.

We need a bit more cut n' paste about the overseas franchise.

We do -

"Overseas Electors Bill 2017-19, a Private Member’s Bill (PMB) sponsored by the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire, Glyn Davies, and backed by the government as a Handout Bill." ...

"it was filibustered by the Conservative MP for Shipley, Philip Davies, a member of the European Research Group (ERG) and ardent Brexiteer. In what was clearly an act of collaboration with Labour against the government, Davies more or less copied and pasted a whole raft of new clauses and amendments tabled by the opposition during the Committee Stage (none of which had been successful) that he referred to as ‘Matheson’s greatest hits’ (Christian Matheson was leading the proceedings for Labour), adding a few more of his own to boot. Several amendments were tabled jointly by Matheson and Davies."

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/09/he-killed-the-bill-britons-living-abroad-for-more-than-15-years-still-dont-have-a-vote/