Churchill to Hitler

[Pinkkgaga]

So it’s trending on Twitter that people are comparing Churchill to Hitler and saying he was just as bad.
Absolutely disgusting imo, but I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on it.

...see also Breukelen.

Yes good point Mockers!

I have no love for Churchill, but to compare his with Hitler is bloody mad.

Can we have all the statues of men who have used, abused, raped, dehumanised, stolen the children of, prevented the education of and killed women removed and defaced please? Ta.

I don't see why not Spartacus

New York recently removed a statue from Central Park of J Marion Sims:

"While Sims is known as the grandfather of gynecology to some, he is known as a torturer to others. The 19th-century doctor performed experimental surgeries on enslaved black women throughout his career, and chose not to use anesthesia."

This man had a statue in his honour for decades, meanwhile there were NO statues of any woman in Central Park until about 6 months ago.

And as soon as Fayed got out of Fulham FC, the Cottagers (not a homophobic slur) tore down his Michael Jackson statue.

An American Cottager (not a homophobic slur) was also castigated for posting "Come On You Whites" on his pages.

I always think of this where he’s earning everyone about hitter years in advance in movies etc. Takes one to know one.

While Sims is known as the grandfather of gynecology to some, he is known as a torturer to others. The 19th-century doctor performed experimental surgeries on enslaved black women throughout his career, and chose not to use anesthesia

So that's a start!

People should be aware that the concept of racism did not really exist until the late 70s

This is, without a doubt, one of the stupidest things I have ever read on mumsnet (and there have been plenty of idiotic statements to choose from).

Shakespeare managed to write about racism in Othello in 1604 and The Merchant of Venice in 1605.

The American civil war and the abolition of slavery took place in the 1860s.

Ida wells wrote "Southern Horrors: Lynch Law in all its Phases" in the 1890s.

Emmet Till was lynched in 1955.

The Klu Klux Klan flourished in both the 1920s and the 1950s.

The American civil rights movement achieved its largest legislative gains in the mid-1960s.

I honestly don’t know how you could possibly be so ignorant as to claim what you have.

Who's next?

Christopher Columbus statues toppled in Virginia and beheaded in Boston -

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/10/christopher-columbus-statue-toppled-virginia

Mockers and after he sold Harrods they got rid of the Diana and Dodi statue. Harsh.

And Hitler was not voted in by a majority, he seized power by undemocratic means.

Not getting a majority does not make an election undemocratic.

@zscaler

People should be aware that the concept of racism did not really exist until the late 70s

This is, without a doubt, one of the stupidest things I have ever read on mumsnet (and there have been plenty of idiotic statements to choose from).

Shakespeare managed to write about racism in Othello in 1604 and The Merchant of Venice in 1605.

The American civil war and the abolition of slavery took place in the 1860s.

Ida wells wrote "Southern Horrors: Lynch Law in all its Phases" in the 1890s.

Emmet Till was lynched in 1955.

The Klu Klux Klan flourished in both the 1920s and the 1950s.

The American civil rights movement achieved its largest legislative gains in the mid-1960s.

I honestly don’t know how you could possibly be so ignorant as to claim what you have.

She didn't say racism didn't exist.

She said the concept of racism didn't exist.

There are an awful lot of statues of white men who thought they were Important, but the grim reaper came for anyway, and are now completely forgotten apart from their statues. Would it be any real loss if they were taken down?

There have always been concepts of race, remember Elizabeth the 1st wanted to get rid of the ‘blackamores’ because there were too many in England, in a letter to the mayor I think. But French people and probably people from Yorkshire were also a different race within the concepts of that time - the book Black Tudors is really interesting on this.

And there have been expulsions of Jewish populations for centuries - which may not be black vs. white, but is part of the same mentality.

The words racist/racism first started being used in the late 60s. Enoch Powell misheard them and claimed that the 'piccaninnies' on the streets of Wolverhampton, West Indian children who for some strange reason spoke no English, he claimed, except for the word 'racialist.'

The term up to that point would have been 'colour prejudice.' The term 'Race' until the 1970s was generally used to denote nationalism, Italians and Poles were 'races.'

The roots of modern European racism come with Neo-Darwinism as a justification for imperialism, mainly in Germany. Previous racist (in the modern sense) atittudes to Non-White Europeans such as 'Turks' and 'Moors' meant Muslims. The original European racism was anti-semitism that was expressed in religious terms. That's where Shakespeare is coming from with Othello and Shylock.

This line applies so often "Once the open sea is reached we forget how we clung to the pilot in the storm"

There will be plenty of people now claiming this or that based on movies they have seen about the past. I doubt those defacing Lincoln's statue did any research or even paid much attention in school.

Exactly, racism in various forms has always existed, but it was the application of Darwinian theories to race that created a really insidious form of modern racism that helped justify imperialism and genocide in the 19th and 20th centuries. This was already being called 'scientific racism' in the mid-20th century (well before the 1970s).

There is a very good article about this if anyone wants to read more about it -- Scientific Racism and the British Theory of Empire:
www.jstor.org/stable/41970819

(You have to register to use the Jstor site but it's free.)

If you want to understand why Churchill and so many people at that time had such repugnant views, then the popularity of 'scientific racism' explains a lot.

She said the concept of racism didn't exist.

Which is, as I said, incredibly stupid.

Why were black men being lynched for allegedly flirting with white women if the idea that they were less worthy as humans didn’t exist?

Why were black people fighting for equal rights under the law if nobody had any concept of racism?

@EmperorCovidula

I always think of this where he’s earning everyone about hitter years in advance in movies etc. Takes one to know one.

Eh?

The original European racism was anti-semitism that was expressed in religious terms. That's where Shakespeare is coming from with Othello and Shylock.
Where's the anti-semitism in Othello? Isn't that Islamaphobia?

I always thought the brutal bit was that the GE was called to fall just two months after VE Day. That seems like unseemly haste.

The US presidential election was held in 1944 - I have no idea how they managed to get all the soldiers votes in.

I always thought the brutal bit was that the GE was called to fall just two months after VE Day. That seems like unseemly haste.

Maybe they thought that the restoration of democracy was a good thing?

I always thought the brutal bit was that the GE was called to fall just two months after VE Day. That seems like unseemly haste.

To be fair, the election had been postponed on a cross-party agreement that it be held as soon as possible after victory (the last two words being rather redundant, really ...).

What is interesting is that even then, "victory" completely ignored the ongoing war with associated loss of life in the Far East. I wonder if that affected votes for the Tories ? Any Brits overseas in 2015 should really not have been surprised that they were invisible to the Tories then too. Although a recurring theme of the past 100 years is how people let the Tories shit on them. Complain. And then vote them back in just to check they were deliberately shat on the first time.