The Queen Victoria statue in Leeds

[Sugarplumfairy65]

Her statue has been vandalised with graffiti. The BLM logo and slave trader spray painted all over it. Why?

@My0My

I might have a dim memory but I don’t recall gay riots, Grafitti, violence and tearing down statues (which ones??) in the uk about gay rights. We don’t have to follow other countries. Maybe there were riots and violence elsewhere but I thought it was by education and reasoned debate here.

This debate is not going to make the change though. Your ignorance clearly shows that. I’m all for one having their opinion. But it tends to be one sided.

Some of you and other posters need to come up something better than “this is not the way”. I can agree to some extent but I can also see how people who have been subjected to racism feel frustrated and unheard.

For me personally I have not joined in the BLM however I don’t blame the people either it’s a tough situation and I view things for all angles!! (Not just my own because it suits myself).

Yes you are missing something someone’s else point other than your that you cherry picked

I am ignorant about what exactly? Please share. What is one sided? Opinion differs regarding educating people but that’s what must happen. Tearing down statues and violence won’t make a difference regarding how people are treated at work for example.

And the Suffragettes were not the only women fighting for women’s suffrage. Millicent Fawcett had more peaceful members and many would argue had more influence on MPs due to this.

I’ve a wide circle of friends
We were all outraged with the murder in America by the white cop
We all supported the protest ,we all felt things needed to change And we said as much to each other ,and we agreed we would step in if we saw something racist happening .
But now they are saying it’s gone to far ,quite a few friends are utterly disgusted with how the protests have gone ,attacking horses ,rioting ,statues..it’s completely out of control,and the mood has changed among my friends ,Now it’s mentioned in passing with eye rolling ,and and for gods sake ...none of us are racist
And I refuse to be called racist because I don’t agree with the violence.
It is perfectly possible to protest without hurting people and animals

This new vogue for tearing down statues at this scale feels as if it's an import from the US, but based on a misconception.

In the US, there was a big debate about the statues to Confederate soliders and leaders. These statues were largely put up to directly honour their role as supporters of the slave trade, and as a direct message to the African Americans communities that the whites were still in charge.

Most of the UK statues that we have been discussing are different. They were not put up to lord it over the afro-carribean or immigrant communities or to honour their work on the slave trade, but to honour another of their achievements (e.g. the defence of England against the Spanish in the case of Sir Francis Drake, or even in the case of Cecil Rhodes, his financial support for the university and scholarships).

The Statue debate in the UK should be different from the statue debate in the US.

It is getting a bit on my nerves now. Are there any statues which would pass the 2020 test of not benefiting from the slave trade or being a racist?

I understand and I don't understand the Colston statue, yes he was responsible for many many black people being enslaved and dying and as a black person in Bristol seeing that statue stirs up feelings of anger etc. But the man was alive 300 years ago, what he did was evil, disgusting, abhorrent but it wasn't illegal or wrong at the time.

We are a country who made its riches from raping and stealing from other countries and we used that wealth to fund the countries own success, to improve build buildings, industry etc. Same with a lot of the other European empires. That needs to be discussed more and I think how comic relief , Oxfam depict some Africa and Asia countries as poor countries who need our 'help', we need to realise how as the western world over centuries we have contributed to this need and the civil wars.

But I do think we should keep our historical figures in place where they are, if they weren't bad at the time and did good at the time.
Please don't equate it, as some have to Saville and Hitler - being a paedophile and necrophilia was/ is wrong , same with gassing 6 million Jews. Again that's not saying black slavery was ever right, but the morals of the world at the time saw it as ok for whatever deluded reason.

Change is what’s needed. However rioting isn’t making sure this happens. What is society going to DO is the real issue.

I’ve heard black people talking about why they don’t aim high with education. Because no one has achieved this in their families so they don’t have role models. I’m very keen that this lack of ambition stops. I want everyone to achieve the very best they can. I don’t want anyone accepting third best is good enough when a young black person could do so much better if they could only see their way forward with guidance.

The argument has very quickly left behind other races too. It feels as though Afro Caribbean people are now the only ones who feel racism. Of course we know this isn’t the case but the debate about some people and their struggles has been closed down already.

@My0My

I am ignorant about what exactly? Please share. What is one sided? Opinion differs regarding educating people but that’s what must happen. Tearing down statues and violence won’t make a difference regarding how people are treated at work for example.

And the Suffragettes were not the only women fighting for women’s suffrage. Millicent Fawcett had more peaceful members and many would argue had more influence on MPs due to this.

Absolutely opinions do differ this does not mean you can’t look at other people’s point of view also (other than your own). Other wise there’s not much point in a debate.

Is that the BLM doesn’t really affect you so you aren’t that particular bothered about it

What ever way you all wish to dress this up. BLM has definitely set tongues wagging and raised awareness though and I think that’s the aim the amount of threads it’s doing something.

The funny thing to me is that you can bet your bottom dollar that in 250 years or whatever, people of the time will be looking back at us through their moral lens, and thinking how backwards we were, or whatever.

Because the people of 250 years hence will be different to us, will have had very different experiences. We can't truly anticipate what it is about our morals and value systems that they will find most objectionable, just that they will differ from us, likely in some radical ways.

I am imagining the rampaging statue demolishers of 2250 furiously cleansing their history of us and our bad, bad ways.

As a country this is not what we need right now ,we need to be pulling together,not pulling apart ..
We have had so many deaths from this virus ,we haven’t had chance to morn the people who died .more will die when there is a spike from the rioting,
Peaceful,Socially distanced protest ,,and more people will be on board

Given that slavery is condoned in the Bible, perhaps it's time to tear down the statues and effigies associated with that?

At this rate the only statues left will be of the Virgin Mary.

Has anyone picked up on where it says 'SLAG' down one of the verticals? Accusations of murder and owning slaves are fair questions that absolutely need to be asked, but 'slag' is just juvenile and undermines the conversation imo.

"The idea behind Year Zero is that all culture and traditions within a society must be completely destroyed or discarded and a new revolutionary culture must replace it, starting from scratch. All of the history of a nation or people before Year Zero is largely deemed irrelevant, because it will ideally be purged and replaced from the ground up."

Not really keen on purges, honestly.

Just flipping ADD to culture and history. Queen Vic's all over the country? OK, no more Queen Vic's. Let's ADD statues of the untold heroines who suffered under Empire. Let everything stand, the old and the new, and let people access all elements of their historical past.

@Sweetlikecoca

What ever way you all wish to dress this up. BLM has definitely set tongues wagging and raised awareness though and I think that’s the aim the amount of threads it’s doing something.

Awareness raising, maybe. But “setting tongues wagging” isn’t an aim of any self respecting campaign.

Worryingly, there doesn’t appear to have been much concrete progress on police brutality, deaths in custody, death by cop or any of those core issues. So maybe it’s time we set out specific goals?

At this rate the only statues left will be of the Virgin Mary

Pretty sure she'll be accused of heteronormativity some time soon.

I actually think anyone who doesn’t have what they need to succeed bothers me. Divisions in society appall me and they are growing. I don’t think people have a unique right to only be allowed to comment if they are black. I believe everyone needs to help and bring the country together but if white people cannot have an opinion or contribute, then all protests will backfire. Consensus always wins.

There are very few powerful nations which don't have blood on their hands - being adept at warfare is the reason why they became powerful. Throughout history empires were built through bloodshed and their military leaders and royal rulers were lauded, so long as battles were being won. Taking over other countries and stealing their wealth is pretty despicable behaviour, but was certainly not limited to the powerful leaders of the UK or America.

I'm not sure how you get to be a "powerful" country without oppressing others?

think many historical figures who were immortalised by statues were very popular and respected in their own time, but as societies have evolved values have changed, so when looked at through the lens of human rights and equality for all people, those people seem more like villains than heroes. Truth be told, many of them were a mix of the two. Perhaps the statues should be moved to museums, where the actions of the people they depict can be placed in full context, to allow people to form their own opinions. I don't think they should be torn down in anger though, that is not the right way to go about it.

Surely anyone from the past who has changed things is going to be problematic under today's gaze?

Has anyone picked up on where it says 'SLAG' down one of the verticals?

Yep, when these activists show they are just the same as any sexist bloke down the pub, I lose respect. Totally unnecessary to use a slur like that. It is juvenile.

Waiting for the irish slave myth to pop up next.

My Irish surname is in the top ten surnames in Barbados and they weren't slavers. Mythical you say?

I'd prefer it if this had all been done in the name of Breonna Taylor.

As an African, I am finding white British people finally learning and some acknowledging their colonial history to be such a sight.

The Empire, built on stolen resources ...

All nations have been or were built on stolen resources. It tends to be how history, post agriculture, works.

There is no 'nation of innocents'.

@shallwedance first post code tell you about the person they were. I am not racist but! It shows

Victoria wasn't racist. An African king sent her a black child called Sarah as a 'gift'. She took this child in, treated her with respect, as did the rest of the royal court and made her her goddaughter. They were very good friends until Sarah's death.

In her later years, one of Victoria's closest friends was an Indian man called Abdul.

@Melia100

I have said this as well. This is a Year Zero imperative. There are no statues of historical figures which will survive the retrospective judgement of the 21st century. What is going on? Did you see that even Abraham Lincoln's statue in London had been sprayed with graffiti?