The Queen Victoria statue in Leeds

[Sugarplumfairy65]

Her statue has been vandalised with graffiti. The BLM logo and slave trader spray painted all over it. Why?

[Defenbaker]

There are very few powerful nations which don't have blood on their hands - being adept at warfare is the reason why they became powerful. Throughout history empires were built through bloodshed and their military leaders and royal rulers were lauded, so long as battles were being won. Taking over other countries and stealing their wealth is pretty despicable behaviour, but was certainly not limited to the powerful leaders of the UK or America.

I think many historical figures who were immortalised by statues were very popular and respected in their own time, but as societies have evolved values have changed, so when looked at through the lens of human rights and equality for all people, those people seem more like villains than heroes. Truth be told, many of them were a mix of the two. Perhaps the statues should be moved to museums, where the actions of the people they depict can be placed in full context, to allow people to form their own opinions. I don't think they should be torn down in anger though, that is not the right way to go about it.

[Andthenthenewone]

Our country has enough to deal with without now being fully sympathizing with BLM.
That’s absurd and a statement from a previliedhed person.

[Andthenthenewone]

I should sleep really. Previledged*

[AllesAusLiebe]

I’m still hoping that ‘Bomber Harris’ gets what he deserves soon, but I doubt it. Not a trendy cause.

Agee 100% with @Defenbaker

[Shallwedancetomojito]

@Andthenthenewone

Yes I should sleep too. I'm just really annoyed about all this now. Maybe I shouldn't vent my thoughts so late at night.

Goodnight.

[Andthenthenewone]

If UK is so god damn racist why the fuck does everyone want to come here to live?
We're the easiest laid back country ever.
Classic.
Probably similar to how Churchill thought Indians were beastly but still thought how imperialism was a glorious thing.
People come here may be because their own countries have been ravaged by the heroes we cherish here? Churchill played a big role in dividing India, throwing that part of the world into a chaos that they are still recovering from.
That’s what imperialists do. What this movement is doing is to evolve as we move forward. A lot of your rights in this country became your rights because someone went out and broke a few rules.

[Aveisenim]

You know what I find most frustrating about all this?

Growing up I never saw skin colour, it just didn't register because at the end of the day people are people, my primary school was mostly white but my secondary school was very diverse, we had quite a few different ethnicities.

Due to all the protests and the mainstream media etc forcing it down my throat the past few years though I do now and that isn't due to my upbringing, it's because of the media hyping everything up. I honestly think that right now this is doing more harm than good. I agree protesting is needed but it needs to be peaceful. The violence and vandalism (and so does the looting in the US) needs to stop because for everyone like me, who continues not to give a shit about the colour of people's skin (if you're respectful to me I will be to you, if you piss me off, you generally know about it. I don't care who you are), there will be someone else who starts to give a shit and not for positive reasons.

[Andthenthenewone]

No one is justifying looting or attacks on police. We are talking graffiti on historical statues mostly.

[NeutrinoWrangler]

The world is going mad. We're being dragged down to the lowest common denominator...

History wasn't always pretty or noble. I feel safe in saying that at no point in the future will humanity ever be perfect. That doesn't mean we should tear down, burn down, or attempt to erase everything from the past that we don't like.

I'm not surprised that some people want to destroy monuments and statues, but I am shocked that it has become acceptable to so many in such a short span of time. I don't believe it's acceptable to most not yet, at least but so many are too afraid to speak up against it.

[Flaxmeadow]

The English have built a nation of the backs of others for centuries.

The English?

The English who laboured from childhood in the fields, in coal mines and industrial mills. Who lived short and brutal lives in over crowded slums. Who formed the first trade unions, copied the world over
Who fought fascism, not just in Europe but in far corners of the earth and who created the NHS? Those English? The vast majority of English were of the labouring class.

As a Welsh person the oppression of English rule dates far back before the trans Atlantic slave trade. Same for our other Celtic nations.

Plenty of "Celtic nations" (whatever that means) made raids into England, often involving slaughter of the innocents. So what. Just about everyone was being oppressed by some warlord, local or foreign

There were Irish, Scottish and Welsh slave owners too BTW

[sleepydragons]

She inherited an empire, what could she have realistically done to change things as a woman in those times.

The same as a man should have done

[sleepydragons]

She inherited an empire, what could she have realistically "Peel’s father - also Politician Robert Peel - who raised a petition against the Foreign Slave Trade Abolition Bill on the basis that it threatened the cotton industry

Are we all responsible for the sins of our forefathers/mothers?

If so there is nobody who is beyond reproach whatever their ethnic origins. Show me a society who have never committed collective wrongs.

[Flaxmeadow]

People come here may be because their own countries have been ravaged by the heroes we cherish here? Churchill played a big role in dividing India, throwing that part of the world into a chaos that they are still recovering from.

The British wanted to spread partition out over a longer period of time, to reduce chaos, but were forced into a quick partition by India and chaos ensued

[Abraid2]

The very ground you walk on was made richer by the oppression of the English. It is what it is I'm afraid.

Proportionately Scots and Irish people were more involved in the Empire than the English. And Glasgow was the Second City of Empire.

[Abraid2]

Churchill played a big role in dividing India, throwing that part of the world into a chaos that they are still recovering from.

Churchill wasn’t prime minister then, it was Labour’s Attlee.

"Keep India united if you can. If not, save something from the wreck. In any case, get Britain out".

[Aveisenim]

Just a quick one while I remember. England was the first country to get rid of slavery and used its navy to enforce it at sea. Sea captains were killed to enforce it. Other countries eventually got rid of it, but it took a lot of work on England's part. IIRC the guy in Bristol whose statue was the first to come down, changed his stance on slavery and Rhodes also changed his stance on other races. I don't know about the others, only Queen Victoria. People evolve over time (unfortunately it doesn't undo what they already did)

[Flaxmeadow]

That's like attacking William Wilberforce.

Already been done. According to at least one historian, he was complicit in slavery in Sierra Leone.

Oh and he was also white, tear him down

[Pixxie7]

Queen Victoria and her government and particularly he husband did a lot of good in this country. So yes she did a lot of things not to be proud of but that doesn’t negate everything else. There seems to be so much hate at the moment, what has to happen for things to calm down.

[Flaxmeadow]

The English have built a nation of the backs of others for centuries...

The very ground you walk on was made richer by the oppression of the English. It is what it is I'm afraid.

For centuries, the English ground I walk has been littered with terraced slums, coal mines, slag heaps and industrial textile mills.

[Goosefoot]

I don’t know what the solution is. What I do know is that we all hate people more if they are in recent memory. Somehow, social media and internet are erasing the concept of time now. Overall, I think it is a good thing. What we do need to do is to put away these statues in museums. And put actual heroes in their place. We have plenty of them.

I don't know that statues of monarch and other significant people in history are necessarily put up because people think they were morally wonderful. They were historically significant which is different. Look at Oliver Cromwell, no one likes him, but he was really an important historical figure.

But I would also point out that when these things were put up, especially ones that are of people other than rulers ,many people did think they were very worthy. What makes you think we will really be any better at getting it right than people of the past? It's good to be constantly reminded that the people we admire may be just as flawed as those admired 100 years ago.

[user1471565182]

No Jigglypuff, BRITAIN went around the world, very much including wales. Instead of announcing how persecuted you are as a welsh person on every bloody thread, why dont you look into the thousands and thousands of welsh people who owned slaves, ran the empire, were in the monarcy and the army?

[user1471565182]

Read the other threads, dressing gown.

[user1471565182]

By 'bust' I assume you mean his grave?

[user1471565182]

ohhh we've even had the 'I dont see colour' now. Waiting for the irish slave myth to pop up next.