AIBU to want to be a man rather than a woman because I am so sick of how we get treated?

[anon666]

disclaimer

I feel I need to make an initial statement explaining that this is in no way intended to offend anyone regards their values or views about transgender issues, or to make light of transgender issues. I'm not an expert on the topic, nor do I have any strong views about it, but I have read the Mumsnet pinned guidelines to try to ensure I'm getting it right.

end of disclaimer

NC for this in case it's identifying.

You know, this probably isn't about gender so much as just despair at the expectations society and individuals still place on women to do all the crappy stuff that men seem to be "too important for".

I've spent my life being the one who gets up and makes the cup of tea, the one who sends all the birthday and Christmas presents, who replied to messages about family matters on both sides of the family.

I'm genuinely in despair in my personal life and in conflict with my husband's family all the time because I feel like they seem to see me as his PA and concierge. It's not just them, to be fair, our neighbours do it too. He is very good at shrugging things off and deciding not to bother without communicating that to the person asking him. And that just seems to lead to them mithering me all the time till I either end up arguing with them that they need to talk to him direct, or as a last resort, mithering him myself just so they will get off my case.

I've had enough of him ignoring people such that they decide to come through me to get to him. I've had enough of always being contacted by his enormous matriarchal family about presents, family gatherings, etc etc.

Even neighbours seem to see me only as an extension to him. "Can you ask him...." "Would it be okay if he...."

It sounds bad, but I can't do it any more. I just want to leave this crappy female life behind and start afresh. I find myself wondering if I moved to a different place and acted as a man, would people just leave me alone and stop trying to manipulate me all the time into doing what they want me to do for them, and manoeuvre my husband into place.

I keep thinking what would it be like if people though that we were a pair of gay guys instead of a female / male partnership. I have suggested it to du tonight, that if it doesn't improve then I want to move somewhere new, start afresh, and pretend we are a couple of gay guys - just to see if it helps.

YABU - I don't recognise this happening and it's you that has the problem.

YANBU - life as a woman is really hard work at times, like you described.

@Pickpick101

None of these issues are male/female ones , they are caused by poor boundaries. As others have said pass these issues direct to your husband.

Whilst I agree with the doormat comment, there is an element of societal expectation on women to take on the mental load/wife work/domestic shite. You can either take it on, willingly or not or decide that it's not what you want for yourself and act accordingly. It's not right to pretend that the pressure still exists however and plenty of people lack the means to reject that pressure, often through no fault of their own.

Of course it is related to being a woman - otherwise there wouldn’t be the term ‘wifework’, or books and many discussions about the phenomenon. It’s great that many PP don’t experience it but that doesn’t mean the OP doesn’t.
I think it’s about pushing back, probably gently and consistently, rather than going crazy at the next person, and resetting boundaries that way. It’ll take time though to retrain people after you’ve taken on the role for so long.

These are problems YOU can fix

Your husband is ignoring requests from people because you keeping picking up the slack and there is no consequence for him. You need to stop doing this if you want things to change.
There is a middle ground between being walked all over and telling people to fuck off; tempting and as gratifying as that might be. I wonder why you have put up with it for so long, would you describe yourself as a people pleaser or are you perhaps masking a desire to control with martyrdom.
I appreciate that sounds unkind but if you really want this to change you need to be honest about how this situation developed and why you have been so passive in allowing it continue.
I think lots of women will be able to relate to being the default family PA, keeping things running smoothly and not making a fuss when we are being crapped on are viewed as virtues for women but now you want it to stop so you will have to learn some assertivneness skills. This will not mean being in conflict, if you are being assertiveness there is no need for hostility, you simply and calmly refuse to undertake tasks which are not your responsibility. If you are consistent then eventually even the most persistent piss taker will get the message.
Alternatively you could LTB

And to anyone saying it’s a DH problem, that is overly simplistic at best, and probably just plain wrong. Relationships exist within society and when society (as a whole, and in general terms) expects women to do things, that’s the message the women will get. So, it’s neighbours, family and friends expecting OP to comply with their expectations (because she’s a woman), not (only) her husband.

@anon666

How would assertiveness skills help? With telling people to f off?

Telling people to fuck off isn't what assertiveness skills are about.

Now the things you desire probably do occur because you are a woman (lots of expectations that women do the presents, cards, general organising etc) but they do not have to.

You can change it, you need to be resilient to do so (which means, stick with it, let negativity/guilt you feel go, accept consequences)

So tell people "sorry, you'll have to speak to him", you'll probably have to repeat (especially at first), don't think it's easier to do it yourself and if whatever it was about doesnt happen accept that - it isn't your fault (let that feeling go).

Cups of tea? Don't make him one: result he doesnt notice or he notices and comments and you tell him it is about time he made tea too.

Presents and cards? Tell him (when relevant) you aren't sending a card or present to his family he can. If he doesn't and it's commented on the reply is "did he not send it? He was supposed to!. Repeat - let all guilt and annoyance go - it's not your fault.

Messages from his family? One reminder to him and tell him you're not responding.No longer your problem or duty.

Resilience skillsin your situation is mostly about letting go of the negative feelings that make you keep doing the things he should be doing. Gettimg over the first stage where people except things to be how they always were and you are the doer and the one who listens. Over time people will realise it's down to him, not you.

This is 100% related to being a woman.

I grew up with a mum who did everything and I thought I had to as well when I married my DH 10 years ago. Lasted about a year before I thought "stuff this", so I just stopped buying his family gifts and taking over the housework plus other things females are expected to do in our society and it's been fine and equal ever since (he never expected me to do any of those things, it was my own expectations).

Tell him what you're no longer prepared to do. None of it is unreasonable and if he acts as though it is you need to take a closer look at who you are married to.

Just stop doing it

I forgot to mention, when you are refusing to play secretary NEVER start a sentence with "I'm sorry but", it opens the door for people to pressure you to do their bidding.

This is a you problem rather than a gender/society problem.

You let people walk all over you, don’t.

If they say something tell them to ask you DH but don’t expect a response because he is useless at following things through,

When they come back to you again just say did you ask DH, if yes or no your answer should again be, and always be, “ask DH but don’t expect a response as he is useless at following things through” rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat!

P.s I buy my DH family’s gifts, but that’s because I like them and want them to have something nice instead of rubbish, DH never knows what to get people unless they specifically ask for it, and his family never do as they consider it rude to ask, so I do it, but because I want to!

just stop doing it

This with bells on it.... why on Earth are you doing this. If you want to buy someone a card, then do so, if you don't, then don't. Same with tea making, same with people asking you to ask your dh. A simple 'why don't you ask him when you see him' will suffice. If you don't think you can, then you need to address why. Moving away and pretending to be a man won't help

This is a situation of your own making. You have allowed this situation to develop and only you can change it.

How would assertiveness skills help? With telling people to f off?

Assertiveness is not telling people to f off. It is about setting your own boundaries, ensuring others know what they are and being able to live with that as most people cave as they feel guilty or are made to feel guilty.

Neighbour: "Can you ask him...."
You: No sorry, you'll have to catch him yourself

Polite but clear.

I don’t recognise this at all.

I wonder if you are trying to articulate the burden of the mental load where you feel the need to remember and do everything. Depending on your relationship and expectations within it you can fall into the role of facilitator to your husband.

I've seen friends who have done this I can particularly think of one who likes to look after her husband and shows her love by looking after him as she puts it but then complains about him never doing anything, she can't see that the two are linked.

I've certainly fallen into the facilitator and general organiser when first married and with children.
A while back I found myself doing a lot of the administration within our family particularly around the kids, so I decided to change that and I've gradually stepped back and will now leave my husband to do things, so if he gets a school letter out of their bag then i don't deal with it, sometimes I've ignored the smaller ones and let him deal with the consequences if they aren't done, this is helped by the fact that he is now the SAHP and I work FT but I was making these changes before.

I was like you but then I decided to redirect DH related things to DH. It took about a year to retrain everyone. Along the way I also had to learn the art of letting things go wrong

This.

You have to get over the idea that you have to be nice or likeable (for that read compliant or a pushover). Your DH doesn't care about being nice to his family, so why should you? If someone says 'could you ask DH' just say, oh it's fine for you to ask him yourself. If they say, I don't get to see him, just say oh pop round later/Saturday morning etc.

If his family bug you just refer them back to him. Every time. If they complain that he doesn't reply, just say, yes it's annoying isn't it, can't understand why he's like that and smile sweetly at them

I am assertive in this and have never wanted to find myself in my mum's position (same job amd hours as dad, yet she did all admin of any kind, all the mental load tasks, all childcare, homework, cooking, etc).
BUT if you are successful at this and FORCE THROUGH equality (which is nearly always required, few men are born ready for equality in the home) the really shitty bit is most other people, and especially vociferously women over the age of 60, want to tell you how GOOD your DH is, how LUCKY you are....and by implication (and they make this clear) what a hard hearted bitch you are. You develop a thick skin, but that doesn't make it right.

I have suggested it to du tonight, that if it doesn't improve then I want to move somewhere new, start afresh, and pretend we are a couple of gay guys - just to see if it helps.

So you listed stuff like in your OP, such as having to make his cup of tea, having to send cards to his family, having to be his PA, and suggested you wanted to move away to rectify it and surely then he would have said 'don't be silly, we don't need to do that, I'll just do those things for myself'? Because that's what it amounts to. That's all the change that needs to happen. He takes responsibility for the mundane minutae of his own life.

What was his response when you suggested moving away and restarting it? As you haven't said anything about what he thinks of all this.

Of course it is related to being a woman - otherwise there wouldn’t be the term ‘wifework’, or books and many discussions about the phenomenon. It’s great that many PP don’t experience it but that doesn’t mean the OP doesn’t.
I think it’s about pushing back, probably gently and consistently, rather than going crazy at the next person, and resetting boundaries that way. It’ll take time though to retrain people after you’ve taken on the role for so long.

Yes this. Many women end up with this role, far more than men. But it doesn’t have to be this way. You need to tell DH which jobs are his. Then start saying “sorry I don’t know, you’ll have to ask DH” and “oh that was DH’s job, has he not done it?”. And the key thing is do not feel guilty about this. If DH isn’t around then start giving people his phone number and email.

Thanks for all your responses. A lot to work through here.

So on the one hand, it is other people doing this, not dh. But his attitude is part of it. His view is that he doesn't want to do this stuff, so he doesn't bother. So in his world, no-one, nieces nephews, parents etc would not get cards and presents for birthdays or Christmas. Neighbours requests would just remain unanswered and ignored. People could try for months to contact him without success.

When I've stepped down from doing it, he hasn't picked it up, and so I've then received barrages of messages from his sister and his mum about it, guilt tripping me. This is because in their family they clearly see this as a female role. It's not helped by the fact that all the other wives do this while the man looks on helplessly and endearingly.

For 15 years now I've tried to change this. I'm a broken record - so many times to say "You need to talk to him" but he doesn't have any contact details, isn't on social media etc, and even then he ignores people so people revert to using me as a way to get to him.

I've ended up repeating myself so often that some people clearly now see me as a nutjob - and they think we have the most peculiar relationship with each other where I will refuse to pass on messages.

But what I have learned from these messages is that I do have the agency to change this. I guess your comments are like a handbook of what not to do. And what I am doing wrong that I need to change is:

1. Decide my approach, then hold firm. Do not be guilt tripped or feel bad, and don't pick the task back up under any circumstances. Mums will go without Mothers Day, birthday gifts and Christmas cards etc. People go uncontacted.

1. Do not even allow people to engage me in any go-between activity - cut it off immediately. I'm doing this already but I am going to go further and come off social media so I can't be targeted. I did actually remove myself from a number of Whatsapp groups and Facebook for a while because it was getting too much.

1. I do have a dh problem, maybe not the one you think. I have an incredibly charming dh whose agreeable and helpful exterior belies his true nature as a virtual sociopath. He genuinely does not give a toss about people's requests and feelings - he is quite happy to live with a family getting no cards and presents, neighbours in dispute, and in virtual isolation having spoken to no-one in years. I on the other hand have a huge underlying sense of caring, kindness, duty and responsibility. So I've got to accept that the consequences on us as a couple will be some element of being ostracised or criticised. So be it.

1. I need to develop my assertiveness. At the moment I seem to go from passive submissivity to red mist, without exploring the middle ground of polite but firm.

@FOJN

I forgot to mention, when you are refusing to play secretary NEVER start a sentence with "I'm sorry but", it opens the door for people to pressure you to do their bidding.

Actually that's a good point. So see my advice above. Change my suggested response fir "Sorry, you'll have to speak to him" to "You'll have to speak to him." Or maybe "You'll have to speak to him, I can't help."

What do neighbours keep asking for? Not the crux of the matter, I realise that but I'm intrigued. Is he a tradesman?

I agree with not saying sorry. However, for someone not used to being assertive and transitioning from doormat to sticking up for themselves, it can help them to feel less anxious about it all until it becomes second nature.

Yes, I wondered about that. What does your DH have/do that your neighbours want so badly, that they'll chase him for months for to get?

Why don't they give up and go somewhere else?

But good luck with the polite, but firm approach, OP, that's the spirit.

I have an incredibly charming dh whose agreeable and helpful exterior belies his true nature as a virtual sociopath. He genuinely does not give a toss about people's requests and feelings

Oh dear. Maybe you feel the way you do because he's manipulated you into it. If this is accurate, I'd seriously be thinking about leaving. He's not going to change and may start other manipulations if you aren't doing what he wants ie making his life easier