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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Racism in Harry Potter?

410 replies

tipsyandtim · 08/06/2020 15:40

Moving away from the JK Rowling transgender comments that seem to have caused a lot of drama on Twitter, I’ve also seen a lot of discussion about the HP books themselves. Many are claiming that they’re inherently pretty racist for numerous reasons- main characters are all white, characters of other ethnicities are usually minor and seem like tokens and tend to have quite stereotypical names- ‘Cho Chang’ was trending on Twitter as an example of a racist name choice.

Wondered what everybody’s thoughts were? I don’t agree that the text shows JK as ‘incredibly racist’ which some are claiming but I think in hindsight she wouldn’t have made some of the character choices if she could write it again. I suppose a lot of content was planned and created about 25 years ago now and what seemed like adding diversity and representation is actually seen as badly thought-out now, even though I think she had well-meaning intentions.

OP posts:
DoraemonDingDong · 08/06/2020 19:02

@MrsNoah2020

Cho and Chang are both surnames. Korean ones. She could have done a lot better there let’s face it

What?! Chang/Zhang/Cheung are all Anglicised versions of the same Chinese name, 张. There are 88 million people in China with that surname. It's one of the 'old 100 family' names - the 100 families/tribes are supposedly the ancestors of all Chinese people. It's the Chinese equivalent of 'Jones' or 'Evans', in terms of how common it is.

Is it International Numpty Day on Mumsnet, or something? Confused If you're going to criticise JK Rowling for something ridiculous, at least get your facts straight.

Thank you @MrsNoah2020, who is right about the anglicised of the Chinese surname character (although I prefer the traditional 張 form myself Wink )

I agree with @toastofthetown that the naming of Cho Chang and the Patil twins were a bit lazy compared to the meanings behind many of the other names
but to me the name Cho Chang reads as an author who picked a name which sounds suitably East Asian enough for a British audience without researching the nuance of the name she chose.

But actually I'm not altogether bothered because you know what? I'm just finding grateful gift the East Asian/ Chinese representation. One character in 7 books, and yeah I'm pathetically grateful.

BatShite · 08/06/2020 19:02

No where is it mentioned that Hermione was white. It was assumed

Been ages since I read them, but I don't really recall there being anything in about the race of any of the characters? If people assume white, its hardly the authors fault?

DoraemonDingDong · 08/06/2020 19:03

I'm just fucking grateful for^

Fucking auto correct Angry

CodenameVillanelle · 08/06/2020 19:04

Books are products of their time. I know the 90s wasn't that long ago but it was another era in terms of understanding diversity and representation.

I read some of the narnia books to my DS a while ago. They are overtly racist. I had to reword some bits as they were so racist even my 9 year old would have picked up on it. I chose to stop reading the series after that one - and anyone can do the same WRT Harry Potter if they want to. Endlessly splitting hairs about detail that was situated in the context of the time it was written is pointless outside of lofty academic circles if you like that kind of thing.

zscaler · 08/06/2020 19:04

I’m really not bending myself into a mental pretzel, and I can’t see anyone else doing that either. But you know, if you want to find made up things to have a go at her about because she’s pro-women, you do you.

I suspect we won’t ever see eye to eye on this, but there are a lot of people going to lengths to explain why they don’t consider any of the many arguments about why there is even subconscious racism in the books to have any validity. Some of the arguments have been, in my opinion, a little absurd. I’m sure you feel the same about what I have said. Let’s agree we won’t get anywhere with trying to see eye to eye when we clearly come from such oppositional viewpoints.

SionnachRua · 08/06/2020 19:05

Yeah you're right that it's weird Fudge was representing Ireland, I'd never really thought of it like that! It's called the British and Irish Quidditch League here

Yeah, I'd be reading that as Ireland is part of the UK too. Britain is technically the island containing Scotland/Wales/England, isn't it?

Sure look it's obviously not a massive deal but as an Irish kid (whose teacher spent all year teaching about Irish oppression) it really got on my nerves 😂 I was never much into Potter but I was annoyed for my fellow imaginary countrymen!

littlejalapeno · 08/06/2020 19:05

@Icantreachthepretzels

👏👏👏👏👏

DaisyDreaming · 08/06/2020 19:06

I think it covers racism in its own way, just not skin colour but pure blood people getting better treatment than muggle born, half bloods not fitting into either sometimes and about and people trying to purify the wizzarding race.

darwin301 · 08/06/2020 19:06

The thing that annoys me about JK Rowling is that she doesn't own up to her mistakes. Racial prejudice affects everyone and I think it would have been better recieved if she had admited to that instead of insisting we are the real racists for imagining obviously white characters as white and seeing racist tropes in her work.

Her portrayal of Lupin, her saying his lycanthropy was a metaphor for AIDS, is imo indefensible seeing that he was turned as a young child by a rabid older man and Fenrir Greyback then goes around trying to turn other children (playing on the homophobic stereotype that gay=violent paedophile) . She should have rectified this by having Dumbledore visibly gay in the Fantastic Beasts films as this time it is actually relevant to the story.

PrincessConsuelaVaginaHammock · 08/06/2020 19:07

I always thought she was basically doing a clumsy 90s British version of attempting diversity. There was a great deal less of it then, especially in Scotland which statistically is and was whiter than the UK as a whole is. Her taking care to mention at least some black characters and Asian names is more than a lot were doing at the time. I think the inclusion of an obviously Irish character by a Scottish author writing while the Troubles were still going on was intended to convey a particular point too: she was trying to be inclusive. Which is not to say she gets it all right. The decisions she made are very of their time.

laudete · 08/06/2020 19:08

Personally, I was pleased to see a Chinese character in the books. Chang is an acceptable surname choice, of no particular note. Cho Chang sounds no worse than Sam Smith or Lucy Liu, as an alliterative name combo. If Cho is not a diminutive/nickname, and deliberately taken from a surname, it follows the irksome modern trend of such forenames as Mackenzie or Taylor.

CodenameVillanelle · 08/06/2020 19:09

@PrincessConsuelaVaginaHammock

I always thought she was basically doing a clumsy 90s British version of attempting diversity. There was a great deal less of it then, especially in Scotland which statistically is and was whiter than the UK as a whole is. Her taking care to mention at least some black characters and Asian names is more than a lot were doing at the time. I think the inclusion of an obviously Irish character by a Scottish author writing while the Troubles were still going on was intended to convey a particular point too: she was trying to be inclusive. Which is not to say she gets it all right. The decisions she made are very of their time.
Completely agree
zscaler · 08/06/2020 19:10

@darwin301 I think that’s a really good point. Instead of accepting the issues and acknowledging that she could be learning from them, she retcons diversity into her books to try and get credit for something she didn’t actually successfully do. That’s really the most problematic part for me.

BeingKindIsFree · 08/06/2020 19:11

Must everything be made into the trending topic.

michelle1504 · 08/06/2020 19:14

My goodness, how far are people going to reach? I dread to think where all this will end...

Maduixa · 08/06/2020 19:19

If we're going to treat this Cho Chang theory as worthy of serious consideration:

As a PP noted, Cho is also a Japanese forename (female), albeit of relatively recent vintage. My landlady in Phnom Penh was also called Cho (and I know she spelled it that way as she left me notes in English). But the character Cho Chang is British; there's no suggestion she was born abroad. We don't know when/from where her ancestors came to alt/UK. Perhaps the parents came from different ethnic/national backgrounds and met in the UK.

I've lived in China and Japan (and Cambodia) where, as in Europe, there's a long history of intracontinental migration, commerce, and cultural exchange. You come across all kinds of oddities among person names, place names, slang, etc. even in the historical records - even in Japan, which was the exception-that-proves-the-rule with its long intentional isolation. There are "Chinatowns" all over east Asia (and beyond), and Chinese elements are incorporated into local language in diverse forms. Names traditionally associated with one country are adopted, mixed up, blended. Languages evolve, people travel and read, elements get borrowed.

Last names become first names and vice versa, either accidentally or on purpose. They get flipped by immigration when someone moves to a country which uses a different ordering convention. There may be multiple methods of standard transliteration for the same source language/alphabet. Parents in a diaspora country may tweak a name to work in the new language, or may even make a mistake in the spelling/pronunciation if they're not fluent in the original language. It's also possible that "Cho" is a diminutive or nickname.

If Rowling had said something arguably racist, either in the books or on record elsewhere, about the reason behind the name or how she chose it - then sure, critique that.

But since we're entertaining assumptions without evidence today, let's look at the likely assumptions underpinning this "Cho Chang's name = JKR is racist!!" theory. Potter is littered with names of mixed European origin: Minerva McGonagall, Blaise Zambini, Bellatrix LeStrange, Florean Fortescue. But spot an Asian name that appears to borrow from multiple cultures/vary from traditional patterns annnnnnnnnnnd ... burn the (witch) racist!

Could this be racism on the part of the authors of these theories and the people who repeat them uncritically, rather than on the part of JKR? Why assume that Asian cultures are static, separate, and isolated when we know European countries have swapped and borrowed language all over the continent? Why freak that someone with Asian ancestry might have a forename that was traditionally used as a surname when we're happy to accept Huxley, Austin, Rafferty, Kendall, etc. as first names for white British/American babies? Why assume that nothing other than a "traditional" name from the family's (presumed-unitary and inflexible) culture of origin is allowed for someone of Asian heritage, when we all know of white babies called Brixlynn, Indy-Rose, and Khaleesi? Why this required purity for "Asians", specifically? Especially when we apparently don't even know which Asian countries/cultures are relevant?

Anyway, whether or not this Cho Chang conspiracy theory itself should be branded "actually racist" and its creators summarily canceled complete with angry tweets from children (and MPs), it does point to a very young, probably very sheltered person who believes that he knows everything about "how things work" because he uses the internet a lot, but has very little first-hand experience of the breadth and variety and sheer glorious messiness of real life diversity. And little knowledge of any history beyond (perhaps) his own.

Incidentally, there's a character called Chang Chong-Chen in Hergé's Tintin series, which sounds pretty damning based on this very convincing Twit Logic. ( OMG, was Hergé a racist??? Hmm Am I going to have to burn Red Rackham's Treasure? Shock ) Wait, maybe not: the name is a nod to Hergé's friend, the Chinese sculptor Zhang Chongren, and the two came up with the alter-ego's name together.

TLDR: It's always best to consider ideas in context, kids, before you go off half-squawked. And do your research from primary sources.

Olliephaunt4eyes · 08/06/2020 19:25

I mean, all the non-British names are pretty awful in that book. I have a Bulgarian friend who has been pretty scathing about Viktor Krum, which is apparently completely off as a Bulgarian name.

I think her write up off American Hogwarts with a bunch of slightly dodgy Native American style names for the Houses was also seen as a bit tone deaf. And let us not even get onto her depiction of hook nosed money obsessed goblins!

I love those books, but they weren't the most sensitively written in the 90s, let alone for today!

flamingochill · 08/06/2020 19:25

Slightly off piste but actually if you take the ethnic minority groups in the UK and the ethnic minority groups in the HP films they are disproportionately represented. There should actually be far fewer in the films. Pedantic but a true fact.

If Hogwarts was a boarding school in the SE of England like the one I went to then there would be far more characters from the Far East and Russia.

Goosefoot · 08/06/2020 19:27

I think the business about the house elves is a little silly. The fact that they aren't human may be significant - perhaps there is something in the nature of magical house elves that makes them particularly keen on doing household work (like traditional brownies.) Many magical creatures in the stories seem to have purposes that are more specific than normal beings do.
That being said I think it's clear that JKR was not thinking readers ought to be comfortable with the customs and laws about house elves. But people who think we are somehow too enlightened to have an uneasy true with serious economic exploitation are being blind - have a look at all the items in your hose and think about where they come from. Chances are there are things made by people who are essentially slaves, or where the raw materials were extracted or produced by slaves. Maybe the wizards in the stories are just like the rest of us.

Sure look it's obviously not a massive deal but as an Irish kid (whose teacher spent all year teaching about Irish oppression) it really got on my nerves 😂 I was never much into Potter but I was annoyed for my fellow imaginary countrymen!

There doesn't seem to be a Canadian magic school either. Perhaps magic schools are distributed according to some regional metric that isn't so wedded to Muggle politics?

TinklyLittleLaugh · 08/06/2020 19:29

I read the Harry Potter books as an adult to my kids. It was as obvious to me as the nose on your face that Dumbledore was gay. My kids failed to pick up on it though, despite one of them being gay herself. If you think the gay thing was a late claim, then you have either never read the books, or you —are pretty thick— are not very good at picking up on nuance.

Fenir Greyback attacks girls as well as boys. There is no gay allegory there whatsoever; he’s just an all out evil bastard.

With the house lives thing, again it is basically clear that Hermione and her SPEW campaign is right and everyone else needs to wake up about it. One of my girls has autistic traits and is very black and white about things. She used to get quite upset that no one took SPEW seriously.

Clymene · 08/06/2020 19:29

@AdalbertWaffling absolutely a gcse English class should be enthusiastic! But this isn't one. And having discussions with adults who think they're still in one is a tiny bit unsettling.

SionnachRua · 08/06/2020 19:33

There doesn't seem to be a Canadian magic school either. Perhaps magic schools are distributed according to some regional metric that isn't so wedded to Muggle politics?

My point has nothing to do with the schools though, the Quidditch World Cup was the issue. Is Canada specifically mentioned in the HP books? If so, I don't remember it.

PrincessConsuelaVaginaHammock · 08/06/2020 19:33

That's an interesting point maduixa about lots of characters having names suggesting mixed European heritage and nobody finding that at all unrealistic.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams · 08/06/2020 19:33

I think part of the reason in the books that there was nothing about Dumbledore being gay is that, to children at school, the sexualities of your teachers just aren't that relevant. Surely they're too old to be having sex. Shock And they seem to live at school all year round, none of them seem to have children there or mention a wife or anything. They all seem a bit bemused when Hagrid goes courting Madame Maxime.

Plus, it's mainly written from Harry's point of view. There's maybe one chapter per book that doesn't involve him? And I'm not sure he's all that observant to be honest. Grin

Redwinestillfine · 08/06/2020 19:34

Having just re read all of these recently there really isn't anything in there about the race of any of the characters, and certainly nothing derogatory. The problem is the film's are so we'll known now that the characters have a face. I think an awful lot of the comments above about the characters are projecting a lot into what in essence is just a kids book.