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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Racism in Harry Potter?

410 replies

tipsyandtim · 08/06/2020 15:40

Moving away from the JK Rowling transgender comments that seem to have caused a lot of drama on Twitter, I’ve also seen a lot of discussion about the HP books themselves. Many are claiming that they’re inherently pretty racist for numerous reasons- main characters are all white, characters of other ethnicities are usually minor and seem like tokens and tend to have quite stereotypical names- ‘Cho Chang’ was trending on Twitter as an example of a racist name choice.

Wondered what everybody’s thoughts were? I don’t agree that the text shows JK as ‘incredibly racist’ which some are claiming but I think in hindsight she wouldn’t have made some of the character choices if she could write it again. I suppose a lot of content was planned and created about 25 years ago now and what seemed like adding diversity and representation is actually seen as badly thought-out now, even though I think she had well-meaning intentions.

OP posts:
7ofNine · 08/06/2020 18:42

Ollivander is a superb character, a master artisan, and he is Jewish.

AdalbertWaffling · 08/06/2020 18:42

Harry Potter was created and set in the early 90s in Britain. The diversity was pretty accurate for the time - yes most of the 'main' characters are white, but the vast majority of the British population were white.

There are lots of BAME characters included in the series, and not all of them only have minor roles! Kingsley Shacklebolt is black, and is a key member of the Order of the Phoenix and is tasked with protecting the muggle prime minister as he is so highly regarded. He also becomes minister for magic at the end.

Cho Chang (others have discussed this name up thread, I won't go into it again) was of Chinese heritage and is the main romantic interest of the protagonist from across multiple books. Plus Angelina Johnson, Lee Jordan, the Patil twins, etc.

I don't think it's completely fair to hold a book written in the '90s up to 2020 standards of diversity, as it is more expected to have a greater diversity now (and rightly so!), but that isn't to say it was written inaccurately.

Also to the poster who said: That wizarding world Ireland doesn't appear to be free from Britain galled me too

I think it is? Ireland played Bulgaria in the Quidditch World Cup? And there were other teams for England, Scotland, Wales, just like how e.g. Rugby works?

CherryValanc · 08/06/2020 18:42

@7ofNine

where ... are all the wizarding Muslims?

Sorcery is haram, so presumably any Muslim child getting the calling would be turning down their place at Hogwarts. So jkr was right to have no Muslim characters.

Are there any religions in the book?

All I can recall is Muggles being heard singing carols in a church. Think that's as close as we get.

Lots of real life religions aren't down with sorcery.

Icantreachthepretzels · 08/06/2020 18:43

Hermione is the only character who’s even close to being on the right side of the slavery argument in HP, and even then she is happy to accept her friends owning slaves where it benefits her as long as the slave owners aren’t too cruel.

Slavery is as old as humanity. For literal millennia nobody thought twice about having slaves - across the globe and throughout all of history slaves have come from everywhere and been owned by everybody and for thousands of years everyone thought it was fine. Literally - slavery goes as far back as historical records - abolitionists crop up in the 18th century. That is a long time of no one doing anything about it.

Wizards are ass backwards in so many things, why on earth should it come as a surprise that they are ass backwards on slavery? even the nice ones? and it takes the person from outside that world to spot the problem. Because it's actually so much easier for Hermione, as an outsider looking in, to spot everything wrong with the wizarding system than it is for those born within it to see the problem.

We are not inherently morally superior to our ancestors because we know slavery is wrong. We just happen to have been born at a time after the system and the rules changed so get the benefit of those changes. We are born after the hard work is done and get to claim morality on that basis - but that's not really fair is it? The people with an actual claim on morality are those born in the system who looked at it and realised it was wrong and did something about it. They are the giants whose shoulders we are standing upon and in the wizarding world, Hermione is that giant.

Perfectly decent people will have told William Wilberforce to shut up and stop being so silly. Loving parents, hard workers, kind to everyone around them, generous to a fault ... who just happened born into an ancient system and were living busy and complicated and hard lives of their own and couldn't see that injustice was the very air they breathed. That's who the wizards who laugh at Hermione are - that's why Dumbledore implores kindness but hasn't got to freedom yet.

Sirius says in book four 'don't judge a man by how he treats his equals, but how he treats his inferiors' ... which is very wise and very noble, and completely hypocritical of him because of how he treats Kreacher. But that doesn't stop him being brave, or a loving and loyal friend ... it makes him a man with a blind spot for his own poor actions. Like literally every single person on the planet. Like all the other characters. It's what makes them compelling and stops them being total Mary Sues that no one cares about.

It's made perfectly clear that wizards are in the wrong when it comes to the treatment of magical creatures. Hermione states that she always said wizards would pay for their treatment of House Elves and draws a direct line to Sirius' death. The godfather of her best friend - and she wasn't afraid to blame him, in front of Harry, for the part he played in his own undoing. Harry looking at the fountain of magical cooperation thinks about how untrue it is and - essentially - what a load of bullshit it is. When Griphook talks about the injustices done to Goblins by wizards and asks who says anything about it? Hermione replies 'we do!' Griphook notes that Harry is an unusual wizard because he took the time to bury Dobby, and we absolutely know Harry was right to do it - so the implication is all other wizards are pretty shit.

The whole story is about these young wizards - particularly these outsiders - entering a stale, unjust, self satisfied and crumbling society and ushering in something better. You can't usher in a new and better world unless the old one was pretty shit. The treatment of House elves, the treatment of goblins and werewolves and the notion of blood purity is the setting of the old order which Harry and Hermione tear down. But they couldn't tear it down if it wasn't there in the first place.

And then people say it's problematic or racist to include these institutions and show them as an unseen, unthinking part of the fabric of society. FFS.

No - it's fucking story telling. The House elves are one tiny sub plot in a rich and textured world. The stories highlight the flawed system and the beginning of the attempt to change that system - there would have to be ten more books all the length of The OOTP and focused on nothing but the house elves in order to get them to a point where the problem is satisfactorily fixed. Britain outlawed slavery in 1833 - the events of the past week show it still isn't fixed yet. Not having an easy fix for a complex situation is not a sign of racism. Not everything has to be wrapped in a neat little bow and spoon fed to an audience by the end of a story - because stories are about life and life aint like that.

PotholeParadise · 08/06/2020 18:43

Mrs Weasley, another character who is seen as morally sound, is said to have wished she had a house elf and that’s a completely legitimate view.

Hmmm. Re-read them. Pay particular attention to the bit where she sends Hermione a tiny Easter egg in the Goblet of Fire because she's bought into tabloid journalism about a 14/15 year old girl, instead of trusting her son's judgement in friends.

7ofNine · 08/06/2020 18:44

Echoing dooble, I have never heard that phrase until this thread, and my best friend of three decades is British-born Chinese.

CherryValanc · 08/06/2020 18:45

Ireland won the Quidditch worldcup.

CarterBeatsTheDevil · 08/06/2020 18:46

"They all swivelled around in their seats, and saw Angelina Johnson coming into the Hall, grinning in an embarrassed sort of way. A tall black girl who played Chaser on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, Angelina came over to them, sat down and said, ‘Well, I’ve done it! Just put my name in!’"

(The Goblet of Fire)

Brefugee · 08/06/2020 18:46

I always assumed Seamus was from London because he's a West Ham supporter, isn't he?

Harry inherits ownership of a slave and doesn’t set him free, and this is not remotely seen as an indictment of his character, or a problematic way to behave

IIRC they did discuss what to do with Kreacher and the consensus was, and some did find it objectionable, was that freeing him, and thus allowing him to speak to anyone he wanted rather than anyone Harry allowed him to speak to, was for secrecy. I'm pretty sure there was some discussion of how uncomfortable that was.

Clymene · 08/06/2020 18:47

I admire Rowling but fucking hell her fanbase are tedious as fuck! Good grief. It's like an enthusiastic gcse English lit class (never happens)

Icantreachthepretzels · 08/06/2020 18:50

There is one character from a Muslim country if not necessarily strictly Muslim himself (same as all the British witches and wizards are from a christian country - and the bible is pretty damn clear on witchcraft) and that is the Egyptian referee of the world cup final, Hassan Mostafa. It's already established there are practising wizards in Egypt because Ron went there and bought a sneakoscope.

So ... definitely wizards - practising wizards - from Muslim countries with names that match their ethnicity. So I ask again (because not every 'muslim' family in Britain is practising same as not every 'christian' family) - why are there none at Hogwarts?

FlamingoAndJohn · 08/06/2020 18:51

@dooble

also because it brought ‘ching Chong chinaman’ to mind which was a very common racist chant.

Define common? I grew up in a very diverse part of south London & like myself all my childhood friends were children of immigrants, mixture of races & religions. Never heard that slur, I guess because of who I was around?

It was common in the 70s when the only Chinese actor was Bert Kwouk and all other Chinese people were played by people with sellotape on their eyes
AdalbertWaffling · 08/06/2020 18:53

I admire Rowling but fucking hell her fanbase are tedious as fuck! Good grief. It's like an enthusiastic gcse English lit class (never happens)

Should a GCSE English lit class not be encouraged to be enthusiastic? Would that be too tedious for the poor suffering English teacher? Surely the fact that a set of books encouraged a whole generation (or two!) to enjoy reading, and has created such a rich world that we can have these conversations even 25 years on is something to be applauded, not mocked?

dooble · 08/06/2020 18:53

Ok I wasn't born then & my parents hadn't even come to the UK then.

FlamingoAndJohn · 08/06/2020 18:53

Ching Chong
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_chong

It’s like Bongo Bongo or other racist terms.

SionnachRua · 08/06/2020 18:54

I think it is? Ireland played Bulgaria in the Quidditch World Cup? And there were other teams for England, Scotland, Wales, just like how e.g. Rugby works?

The Bulgarian Prime Minister is there representing Bulgaria. Fudge is the other, no sign of an Irish Prime Minister. Take from that what you will but I read that as there being no Irish independence. If there is, surely it's even weirder for the Irish Taoiseach not to attend. harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Britain

Interesting about Finnegan, I remember him as being a stereotypical Irish lad! Goes to show how much you can mix up movies and books.

MrsNoah2020 · 08/06/2020 18:55

if we're going to do Tolkien, how has no-one taken Peter Jackson to task for the horrific portrayal of hobbits, Pippin and Merry in particular, as "comedy" Irish buffoons, with Hollywood shite Emerald Isle music to boot?

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, @7ofNine, but Merry has an Irish accent because he is played by an Irish actor. Pippin has a Scottish accent because he is played by a Scot.

mummabearfourbabybears · 08/06/2020 18:56

Slightly off piste but actually if you take the ethnic minority groups in the UK and the ethnic minority groups in the HP films they are disproportionately represented. There should actually be far fewer in the films. Pedantic but a true fact.

SummerDayWinterEvenings · 08/06/2020 18:58

I think JK addresses racism more than adequately in terms of muggles, and mudblood and pure blood wizard families.....etc I don't remember reading any race into her books.

zscaler · 08/06/2020 18:59

IIRC they did discuss what to do with Kreacher and the consensus was, and some did find it objectionable, was that freeing him, and thus allowing him to speak to anyone he wanted rather than anyone Harry allowed him to speak to, was for secrecy. I'm pretty sure there was some discussion of how uncomfortable that was.

It’s about two lines in which Dumbledore essentially says ‘obviously we can’t free this slave because that would be extremely inconvenient to us, so let’s have him be a slave at hogwarts instead where we can keep an eye on him’ and Harry is like ‘great solution, glad I don’t need to worry about that anymore’. Then later on in that same book he orders Kreacher - completely against Kreacher’s will and in a manner which causes him distress - to spy on Malfoy for him.

So it’s hardly a soul searching bit of character development. Harry - the shining hero of the books, the person whose huge capacity for love and compassion is what makes him so remarkable - not only continues to own a slave, but orders that slave to perform tasks he hates against his will when it suits Harry to do so.

SummerDayWinterEvenings · 08/06/2020 18:59

Didn't she say many of her characters were inspired by either real life people and grave stones ??

dooble · 08/06/2020 18:59

@flamingoandjohn the link you posted mainly had US references perhaps that's why we were not aware of it. Obviously heard the other C word slur & occasionally saw people doing the pulled eye thing when we were younger.

AdalbertWaffling · 08/06/2020 19:00

@SionnachRua Yeah you're right that it's weird Fudge was representing Ireland, I'd never really thought of it like that! It's called the British and Irish Quidditch League here https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/BritishanddIrishQuidditchhLeague, but maybe that was added in hindsight?

Tulipstulips · 08/06/2020 19:01

@zscaler

Because it’s got zero to do with her portrayal of race and everything to do with finding any stick they can to beat her for being pro-women.

From my perspective, it looks like the complete opposite. These criticisms about racism and anti-semitism have been around for years, and people are now bending themselves into mental pretzels to justify it because they are supportive of her stance on transgenderism.

I’m really not bending myself into a mental pretzel, and I can’t see anyone else doing that either. But you know, if you want to find made up things to have a go at her about because she’s pro-women, you do you.
SionnachRua · 08/06/2020 19:01

Critique of racial issues in Harry Potter isn't new. When I was in college we had to write an essay on famous children's literature, focusing on a set theme. Potter and racism was one option, I remember there being plenty of papers to reference on it.

(I wrote about the Chronicles of Narnia, in case anyone is wondering. There's a whole load of shit to dig through in that).

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