Family row scheduled for this afternoon - help me prepare myself

[Oakmaiden]

This is not the way I would prefer to deal with this, but unfortunately my husband scheduled a family row (aka "We will discuss this tomorrow") with my teenage daughter. I need help to work out what we hope to achieve and what is reasonable to expect. Please.

The background: I am trying to keep this as brief as possible. DD is 16 and is currently (was, before everything shut down) being assessed for Autism. She also suffers from sometimes very bad depression and very high levels of anxiety. She is very bright (was hoping for straight A's for GCSEs, but with all that is going on, who can tell...) but her passion has always been for performing - she normally spends around 20 hours a week on top of her school week dancing/acting/singing etc.

Lockdown obviously changed her life dramatically. As well as an abrupt end to her schooling and the cancellation of several performances she had been working hard toward, her "extra curricula" life changed. Her dance, drama and singing lessons all went on line, so she could have continued them as normal, but she finds the online format very difficult, and says that she no longer feel as though she is being taught and corrected, merely given activities to do. She has stopped singing and drama completely, and goes to maybe 3 or 4 dance classes a week. At most. The rest of the time - she plays on the computer or sleeps.

And this is the source of most of the conflict - she plays a game with people in the States, so goes to bed at about 4am and gets up early afternoon. Yesterday we didn't see her until 6pm. She hasn't been outside since the week before lockdown (she was isolating the week before as she had mumps) except occasionally in the garden. Her contribution to the household is to cook one meal a week and wash up once a week (these are her official "tasks") which I don't think is very much, but she thinks is hugely unreasonable. Yesterday it was her turn to cook, and she decided to make macaroni cheese (which my husband can't eat as cooked cheese makes him ill) and refused to heat up a jar of ready made sauce alongside it for her father so he could eat.

And EVERYTHING we say to her she has a comeback for.

I want her to live more "UK centric" and sociable hours, to become more involved in preparing for her future and to help out a bit more. To lead a more normal life. She says she can't see what difference it makes to us, and we should leave her to do what makes her happy. DH wants to confiscate her computer.

Am I being unreasonable to want to make changes (I am willing to compromise, and in honesty her happiness IS very important to me) or should we just leave her to get on with it.

[Seeline]

I think the meal for her Dad was wrong, but for the rest of it, I would give her some leeway.

I have a Y13 DS and a Y11 DD - this has been incredibly hard for both of them. Their lives, expectations, aims etc have just been snatched away. Their friends, hobbies etc - gone. Their whole purpose in life - working toward exams they have been told for the last 2 years are the most important things - disappeared.

My DS has gone nocturnal - not playing games, but chatting to mates on line. We usually see him between about 4-8pm each day, the rest of the time he is sleeping or on line.

My DD is still doing some A level bridging work, but set by her new place of education which she will hopefully be starting in September, so no links with current friends etc.

She has also gone from 3 hours of dance to 2 x 30 min on line lessons each week. She is doing those to keep in contact with friends rather than really learning anything.

I think given your DDs possible SEN issues as well, I would be cutting her some slack on the gaming issue.

[LaceCurtains]

Cooking a family meal that she knew would make dad ill is a very big deal. I'm not sure how autism would affect any discussion but here, I'd be "working with" DC to prepare and cook a week's menu that DH could eat, so that they knew better next time. A kind of natural consequence.

In current circumstances, I'd let the rest go. Does it really matter if she gets up at 6pm when there's nothing to fill her days? I really feel for teenagers atm, especially the year 11s

[Ellisandra]

Are you so sure she’s not aware of her father’s disapproval of her perfectly reasonable educational choices?

[RedRed9]

I want her to live more "UK centric" and sociable hours
But isn’t she socialising with friends during the evening/night? So if, for example, turned the WiFi off at 10pm then you’d be stopping her from meeting with her friends.

The rest of your issues I agree with. But if she’s autistic I think you should allow her (safe) friendships.

[Gamble66]

Pick your battles

[Waveysnail]

She gets to choose her a-levels not her Dad. He needs to support her. I was pushed into 4 academic a-levels by college and fell on my face.

[Ninkanink]

I would suggest that you report your OP and ask MNHQ to have this moved to the ASD topic. You need advice that is tailored to helping young people on the spectrum. Many strategies and disciplinary techniques that would help NT children and young people will likely be counterproductive in the extreme.

[DoraemonDingDong]

I have an ASD 17yr old DD, also dealing with anxiety and depression.

Similar to your DD, mine has lost all motivation for school work and extra curricular music activities - Zoom lessons for music just do not work for her. Online school work is scarce, she keeps on top of it, and worse she can and does ace tests without doing the background work - so she is not motivated to keep a regular schedule for school work.

On the one hand I am completely with you and your DH, I too would love my DD to keep more regular hours and engage in family life more.

On the other hand, lockdown is unprecedented and extremely hard on many people. My DD finds the lack of school routine and structure really difficult to cope with - no amount if moaning or nagging by me will replace that kind of every day structure, without it she is really lost.

I think the ASD and anxiety aspects can't be underestimated, taking away what little entertainment or engagement your DD currently has might be counter productive and will likely only increase her anxiety and general family unhappiness.

In your shoes I would try negotiating with her about the cooking - explain again that she needs to cook something to accommodate everyone in the family, as you likely do.

After all, with GCSEs and school having been so abruptly curtailed, surely this summer could be a time for relaxing? Ultimately she will return to a more normal routine once schools restart and life resumes along more normal lines, so how important is it right now that she conforms to a normality, a schedule, that no longer exists for her?

We (DH and I) have found that we do need to learn new ways of dealing with our DD, as we're all learning and understanding her better through the ASD perspective. For us, arguing gets us nowhere - DD becomes unresponsive and our opinions are not recieved.

Some people might consider our approach "pandering", but all parents do that, just in different ways. And my "pandering" means that now, 6 months on from the diagnosis, we are communicating better than before (not perfectly or to my satisfaction, but DD is more amenable to listen and respect our opinions to a greater degree). Good luck

[Zebracat]

I have a child the same age , also with some autistic features. This day for night thing is a disaster for developing brains, and most particularly for people who are not neuro typical. I would insist that she sticks to a routine, something like lights out at 10.30 on school nights and midnight at the weekend. This isnt harsh, it’s ensuring that when lockdown ends they can take up their old life. I would also insist that she takes some exercise every day and comes out for a walk a few times a week.
And I would up her household tasks and hold her to them. We do people no favours by turning them into entitled drones, and she will be living independently in a few years.
I know lots of people have very healthy online friendships but young ones like ours are particularly vulnerable, and we got badly affected by some very unhealthy ideas about mental health etc.
Support your Dh.

[Ninkanink]

Sorry, it’s called the Special Needs topic. There’s a specific section for teenagers and young people.

[Waveysnail]

Could she start her dance teacher qualification now? Might give her something to focus on?

[MitziK]

She needs to continue her singing lessons. Like any other part of the body and activity, singing requires muscle strength and memory - not just in breathing, but in posture, mouth, tongue, throat, chest, every part of the body that you use to make a pleasing sound.

Singers don't only sing when they are in lessons or have a show/people in the same room as them. Musicians don't only practise when there's somebody standing over them.

She wants to be able to go back and hit those notes, develop the strength, fullness and richness of tone that comes from consistent practise, not go back and find that whilst other people have continued to develop their voice, hers has become weaker, less reliable and she has a load of ground to make back up. She wants to enjoy singing again, not spend her time trying to regain what she's spent years developing.

Professional musicians and singers are still performing throughout lockdown - you have so many performances recorded from different Zoom feeds and mixed together, performers in their 70s and 80s on YouTube or TV with just their phones propped up in front of them and doing fine. It's different, but it is still performing.

Same with acting. Acting to a camera is completely different to on stage. It's good experience to learn the differences in technique. She can develop her skills in soliloquy, different voicings and expressions to allow for being seen close up rather than across an auditorium.


The logic of that might appeal to her. And filming is a lot easier in natural daylight than it is at 3am when you have artificial light and other people in the house who might prefer to be sleeping.

[EwwSprouts]

Disrupted sleep patterns can influence mood significantly. I would be saying no computer after midnight any night. That's not taking it off her that's just saying part of looking after yourself is healthy sleep. It is highly unlikely the same game is not played in UK hours by anyone in UK/Europe etc time zones. They have not been her 'friends' for long assuming she wasn't playing at 4am when still in school.

[ChicCroissant]

Begin with the end in mind - what would be a good result for you and her here?

As the PP has said, my first thought was what was she planning to do in September anyway? Is there any way she can work towards that now? Was she going to stay on at school or go to a college? She needs to focus on the next point in life rather than getting lost in the lockdown.

You do need boundaries - the meal her dad couldn't eat crossed a line there, that does need pointing out in very clear terms that it is unacceptable.

Can you arrange one-to-one online lessons so she is getting more direct feedback on the activities that she likes? What is it about the dance that is acceptable when the drama is not, for instance?

If she does have a focus point for September, getting up at 6.00pm is very unlikely to be compatible with it!

I'd schedule a review in a week's time to see how it is all going and if more drastic action is needed.

[Branleuse]

I would not agree with taking the computer i
Of a 16 year old autistic, but definitely not in a pandenic where she cant do her other hobbies and is already depressed. Imo you have seperate issues.
I wouldnt accept the 4am bedtime either, but surely it would be easier to turn wifi off at midnight

[TheListeners]

Please don't ignore the advice from parents with children with ASD. If you take away the computer what does she do to keep herself busy? Are you and your husband working from home or in a position to spend time with her? I mean who is it affecting if she doesn't get up until the afternoon? What does family life look like for her?

For my son who has ASD his Xbox reduces his anxiety. Without that outlet he self harms because his anxiety hits the roof and he can't cope. Children with ASD sometimes can't explain or recognise or express their feelings in a way an NT child might. So your discussion might not be that helpful for her because she may end up feeling frustrated because she can't express herself. What outlet does she have for these feelings?

When we stopped worrying so much about the Xbox it made my son's and our lives so much easier. There is less conflict, the house is calmer and he will engage with other family activities.

I would be worried with a history of depression that if you remove the computer she may just take to her bed and not get up at all.

[3LittleMonkeyz]

I would take the router to bed with me if I was in that situation, but not as a punishment or to modify her behaviour but to protect her. There are all kinds of people on the internet, paedophiles and abusers use gaming sites. She may be being groomed or scammed.

[Stripesgalore]

I don’t see why the hours are a problem during the lockdown.

DD is the same. She is home from uni and stays up very late to go online and then is asleep in the day.

As long as she is participating in some basics of family life as well I’d rather she kept whatever hours are best for her in terms of socialising.

[Inertia]

If she already suffers with depression and anxiety, and has signs of autism which warrant further investigation, then I don't think a 'one size fits all' approach is going to be right for your daughter, and it might be more helpful to consider approaches suitable for her mental health situation.

I'm generally not in favour of letting teenagers rule the roost, but I think as parents of 16-year-olds we have to understand that their short-term future has been whipped away from them. They've all been working for GCSEs that were abruptly cancelled, they all had plans for proms, and time with friends, and activities planned for the post-GCSE window of freedom. Your daughter has lost a huge chunk of her extra-curricular social interactions. I think teenagers may well need a degree of understanding in terms of processing unexpected changes and disappointment.

As a previous poster suggested, giving your teenager her own voice in suggesting a way forward might help you find a compromise. I'm not sure that imposing punishments which take away all of your child's opportunities to self-regulate will help.

[vanillandhoney]

But her Mental Health matters SO much more than what she cook or when she sleeps - it really does and right now if she's keeping herself on an even keel then tread extremely carefully!!

But it's all linked together, isn't it. Poor sleep patterns (sleeping all day and gaming all night) are often a consequence of poor mental health. If you have nothing to wake up for, you stay in bed all day, then you're not tired at night, so you sit up on a computer playing games, so you're shattered in the morning and the whole cycle repeats itself.

And if part of the agreement is she cooks for the whole family once a week, then she needs to cook something everyone can eat - there's nothing wrong with cooking macaroni cheese but she can't just refuse to heat up a jar of pasta sauce for her dad either.

I have ASD I don't think letting her sleep the day away, refuse to go outside of the house/garden for months and game all night is a good idea long-term. Yes, it might make things easier NOW but in the long run it's going make things harder. The longer she's in this routine, the harder it's going to be to get her out of it.

[IndiaMay]

I think the meal was wrong and ask her to help out more round the house. But if shes playing games all night and sleeping all day at least shes out your hair and you can get on and work, do what you want to do. Sounds ideal to me, not like theres much else for her to do

[soruff]

It seems that you are getting a bundle of detail suggestions from others with experience. May I add:
You, as parents still have to be in control especially because her decision system and assessment of the environment she is in are not 'ordinary'.
You must also be seen to be setting limits. If only because her safety might be at risk in these late night computer sessions.
If she is able to tackle academic work at A level she must have a fairly good standard of reasoning.
Will you be able to explain that the meal choice was an example of her not applying the correct levels of reasonableness.
However we are all quite capable of being deliberately 'bloody minded' So you might have to let it go.
Best of Luck

[SummerDayWinterEvenings]

With the number of meals in the household at a minimum of 14 she needs to put her weight. You say she is straight level A at GCSE -she can communicate yes. Turn off her game. Turn it off. If she can't be reasonable to reheat one member of the family a sauce she has been asked to -jog on. Sorry but you don't get to play and do everything you want when you aren't paying for it. My daughter has an EHCP for a variety of things- but she is also a 'high functioning autistic'. I'd confiscate her computer too -your poor DH so bloody unfair on him. She needs to be up at 9am. Block out Monday to Friday into 10 sessions am and pm and give her a choice of household chore or x drama etc online 2 hours a day, 1 hour am and one pm. But the computer only for that. Only insist of an hour daily walk with one or other of you, she doesn't need to talk just walk. My daughter sometimes can't cope with eye contact but we walk sometimes she talks and I listen sometimes we talk together. I do not use the walks to talk or lecture her -but somehow it works.

[billy1966]

The biggest thing is to not allow big sweeping punishments to be imposed and then having to back track or in my case having to police them after my husband had unthinkingly said no TV for a week and he was away!!

I wiped the floor with him and he NEVER made that mistake again🙄.

I think your husband and yourself need to be on the same page.

Do not take the computer.
Tackle the 4am hour...too late.

She needs to help out more.
She needs to eat with the family more.

Allowing her to totally dictate how she lives will not help her.
Allowing teens to become rigid at such a young age does not serve them well.

Definitely get parental advice re dealing with ASD discipline would be a good idea.

Tell her that cooking something her father couldn't eat and then refusing to open a jar was very hurtful.
Talk about consideration.

Emphasising that the family is a team and everyone has to work together.

Also tell her that should she continue to insist on being uncooperative within the family unit....you too can also be difficult.

Emphasising that ye want things in the home to be peaceful, respectful and contented.

Give her the chance to comply.

If she chooses not to comply.
Turn that wifi off earlier in the evening.

That has always concentrated minds in this house!.

[CardsforKittens]

I have teens with ASD and depression. Similar situation here re the sleep and computer. I’m not fighting it - it’s not ideal but I think the depression would be even worse without it. Sleep seems to be the last thing to return to normal when my children are particularly disrupted. I don’t know if this is true for all teens with ASD.

The dinner thing is a different matter. I would supervise a bit more because even simple meals can involve a lot of mental load for a young person with ASD and depression.

One thing I’m insisting on with mine is regular outdoor time - every day for a few minutes if possible. Even just a walk around the block seems to make a difference.

Hope things go well with the discussion.