To think JK Rowling is a fabulous human being

[TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair]

I just came across her book, 'Very Good Lives' which is all about overcoming adversity. I think it's so important that successful women talk about the times they've failed and how success is about pushing past that. I'm reading it just at a time I need to hear that message. I can definitely recommend buying a copy if you are in need of a boost or have some pennies to spend on something nourishing.

I was also looking into her charity, Lumos, and I had no idea just how much she was trying to help disadvantaged children. I love that she's putting her money and position to good use.

The term 'national treasure' generally makes me want to poke my own eyeballs out with a rusty kitchen utensil but AIBU to say she is an utter treasure and we are lucky to have her. She makes the world a better place.

That's all!

A transwoman should not be able to use female toilets for example?

Even thought it is obvious that they would be at HUGE risk by using male toilets?

At huge risk from who? Women? No, so why do women have to move over and make room just because men can't stop themselves beating up other males who don't conform to their fucked up idea of masculinity? Why is it up to women to solve these problems that men create? Why can't women just have their own space?

A transwoman has no less right to safety than I do. Or anyone else.

Define transwoman.

Why would they have more right to safety than any of the other people who use men's spaces?

How are they safer in women's spaces if any man can use women's spaces?

There are very very rare cases of men "pretending to be trans" in order to gain access to womens spaces.

Actually they are campaigning to take away the bother of pretending to be trans so that they can just straight up take over all women only places with their male bodies. They don't want to take nasty medicine or remove their hairy balls. They don't want the inconvenience of hair and makeup to help them blend in. They certainly don't want to wear emasculating dresses. They want to just march in with their big boots on and trample over everything that women have for themselves. They are even making a law about it back them up. It's got nothing to do with being trans really, that's just a cover.

A transwoman has no less right to safety than I do. Or anyone else.

Agreed. In which case a third space seems like a great idea to me.

Wikki

I think you will find that people that are labelled 'Gender Critical' and phobic, actually want exactly that. That women are kept safe and that transwomen are kept safe. However, it is important to find a way to make sure this happens without eroding women's rights. But to say this is what is being deemed 'phobic'. To not be 'phobic' you have to agree that in every situation those that identify as a woman, regardless of their intention, is a woman. For sport, employment, single spaces, health.

It really seems like last week that the activists were actually claiming there was 'no such thing as biological sex' and that 'sex=gender identity'. It seems this week after several articles pointing out this is a fallacy, they are now saying 'none of us said this'. However, there are plenty still saying that they as a penis haver, have always been female, they are just physically in the wrong body. Language here is the battle ground.

Enjoy researching it to come up with your own thoughts. I recommend the 'break it down' thread on the FWB.

Or is it only the transwomen who meet our ideals of femininity? What then about butch females?

Femininity refers to a set of sex based stereotypes which are restrictive and outdated. In my experience the term feminine ideal, when used by women, ends up in inverted commas to signal women's utter contempt for it. Misogynistic men however really love the "feminine ideal".
Your comment about butch women is disgusting.

@merrymouse

Or is it simply that you don't want non feminine trans women in womens spaces. How do you know the women in the next stall in the toilet isn't a transwoman?

I'm assuming that because you are using the word 'stall', not 'cubicle' you are from the US.

There are no 'bathroom bills' in the UK. We haven't really had 'public bath houses' in the UK since Victorian times. We have public toilets.

There is no general law in the UK that restricts entry to a public toilet on the basic of sex. Many toilets are not sex specific. It is unlikely that this will change.

However there are laws that allow services and spaces to discriminate on the basis of sex. This allows men to have gentleman clubs and join he masons (Trans activist Edward Lord is a well know mason), but more importantly it enables the existence of single sex spaces in situations where women are vulnerable.

Whether or not you or I agree or disagree on whether a woman is vulnerable in a toilet is not relevant to the fact that if the law were changed or interpreted in line with trans activist demands men would have access to all female spaces.

No, I'm not American. I'm English. I just used the first word that came to mind. Probably because the sign at work calls them stalls rather than cubicles.

My point about that.. was how to you police it? How do you know someone is trans? They don't wear badges. So you only choose the transwomen who don't look... feminine enough? Only feminine transwomen who pass the looks test are allowed in?

That was my point.

@Enderthedragon

A transwoman has no less right to safety than I do. Or anyone else.

Agreed. In which case a third space seems like a great idea to me.

Yes. This may be the answer.

Has anyone said what's transphobic about JKR's tweets or have I missed it? It is a long thread.

WikkiTikkiWoo No, transwomen may not use women's spaces. It isn't a debate, it's just no. I don't want to be asked what they should do. It isn't my problem to sort out. I'm not their mummy. Use the men's, campaign for third spaces, whatever. There are no stats to support the claims of extra risk and even if there were there are far more vulnerable male cohorts such as black men and gay men. I'm not anyone's human shield and I do not consent to be used as some sort of background validation tool.

(everyone on the naughty bench for not womaning properly, can you please budge up a bit? I think my lack of caring ladynature not to mention total avoidance of housework and the fact I've never worn make-up in my life has put me there too)

@SomewhereInbetween1

Not all women menstruate, and not all who menstruate are women.

Yes, some girls menstruate too.

My point about that.. was how to you police it? How do you know someone is trans? They don't wear badges. So you only choose the transwomen who don't look... feminine enough? Only feminine transwomen who pass the looks test are allowed in?

Can you define 'transwoman' here please? What are the criteria for being a transwoman?

Has anyone said what's transphobic about JKR's tweets or have I missed it?

I don't believe so.

Yes. This may be the answer.

Unfortunately, transwomen don't seem to want third spaces. They aren't campaigning for them anyway as far as I can see.

If male bodied people (you know, men?) are not legally allowed to be in women's toilets, then it would not be a hate crime to tell them to leave when you encounter one in there.
Unlike the current mess we're in.

@FOJN

Or is it only the transwomen who meet our ideals of femininity? What then about butch females?

Femininity refers to a set of sex based stereotypes which are restrictive and outdated. In my experience the term feminine ideal, when used by women, ends up in inverted commas to signal women's utter contempt for it. Misogynistic men however really love the "feminine ideal".
Your comment about butch women is disgusting.

taken out of context, the butch women thing, yes, is disgusting.

But taken in context.. My point was how does anyone know whether they are sharing what ever space with a transwoman? It was about the ridiculousness of using the feminine ideals as a basis for what a woman should look like - and thus how you can tell they are a transwoman?

So do you then query anyone you have a suspicion about? Do you query every woman who looks butch in your definition of it? Or what?

I just want to know how anyone would know someone was a transwoman??

My point about that.. was how to you police it?

In situations where women are very vulnerable e.g. where they are asked to share overnight accommodation - ID should be produced, and would generally be necessary anyway.

Re: toilets and changing rooms, you would have to ask somebody whose freedom is compromised if they can't access single toilets and changing rooms. As somebody who is happy to use mixed sex facilities (mainly because I can exercise a lot of discrimination about which I use), I am not best placed to answer.

And before ANYONE continues putting words in my mouth, I have not called anyone transphobic. Or told them they aren't "womaning" correctly (what ever the fuck that is).

I am finding this interesting. And believe it or not, I am learning from some people on this thread. Those willing to engage and discuss.

How else do we form our views other than with discussion? How else do we change our views other than to discuss and learn from others?

@WikkiTikkiWoo I feel that you are trying to derail this discussion now with all this talk of toilets. That really is not the point of this thread.

Back to the issue: the original point of this thread was whether it was transphobic of J.K. to say that biological sex exists, and that only women can menstruate. What are your thoughts on that, please?

My point was how does anyone know whether they are sharing what ever

I'm not even sure what you mean by 'butch woman'. If you mean 'woman who looks like a lesbian'... well she clearly looks like a woman.

I just want to know how anyone would know someone was a transwoman??
I think this is deliberately disingenuous. Most people will know, believe me. It's blindingly obvious, even without having access to the contents of their pants

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but...

Back to the issue: the original point of this thread

and that only women can menstruate

The problem with what was said would be this bit - It is kind of dismissive of trans men, they're allowed to be seen as men so why refuse to recognise them?
In a no you're not, you're a woman way?
It's very black and white, rigid thinking.

I am finding this interesting. And believe it or not, I am learning from some people on this thread. Those willing to engage and discuss.

I get you. I have been exactly where you are now.

So... If you believe that a transwoman is anyone who identifies as a woman, and you believe that transwomen are women, then you believe that any man can be a woman, if he wants to be? And so can have access to all women's rights, including access to their toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges, sports? What does that leave for women?

[quote WikkiTikkiWoo]@Winesalot Thank you!! That is great and very helpful.

from what I have read of Castor, even though they may have experienced male, rather than female, puberty, they weren't aware of that fact. It must have been incredibly distressing.[/quote]
Caster did become aware of that fact over ten years ago though. And continued to defraud women by running in women's events. They were given the option of taking hormone therapy or surgery to reduce their testosterone levels nearer to those of a woman (note nearer, not as low as) but refused.
No I'm afraid I have no sympathy for Caster. I do have smpathy for the women who were denied medals and placings by Caster being allowed to compete in their events.

As somebody who is happy to use mixed sex facilities (mainly because I can exercise a lot of discrimination about which I use), I am not best placed to answer.
Care to expand on why you feel you have access to both, merrymouse? Or have I misunderstood?

What are they, these mysterious ones who menstruate but aren't women?
Trans men, obviously.
May be biologically female, but they have every right to identify as men.

Absolutely, they are women who identify as men. So yeah, transmen or women.

It takes nothing away from me to make language more inclusive.

But you are not making language "more inclusive", you are changing the meanings of words.

What is it you mean by woman and man now?