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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

590 replies

PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 17:43

Continued.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 16:34

Stated **

OP posts:
PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 16:35

That linked to another story where a woman had called the police because “a black man is wandering around the neighbourhood in a police uniform, he’s obviously trying to break in.” The police had to inform her that he was, in fact, a policeman.

I'm embarrassed for her.

OP posts:
PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 16:35

@imstillbreathingbarely Thank you Flowers

OP posts:
RiceBubbless · 08/06/2020 16:38

But after 4 threads you still don't change your title. Yes I finally couldn't not reply as I saw other posters being shouted down. Educate yourself. White people have suffered racism in recent memory and in the UK

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 16:47

But after 4 threads you still don't change your title.
Because it's a continuation of the previous thread.

Yes I finally couldn't not reply as I saw other posters being shouted down.
You haven't read enough.

Educate yourself.
You too.

White people have suffered racism in recent memory and in the UK
Racial prejudice, discrimination yes. An Italian choosing to go to Australia (where darker skinned "black" people are a used every day) is not the same.

OP posts:
RiceBubbless · 08/06/2020 16:59

There is no point in arguing with you, yes you can change a thread title even if it is a continuation, yes thanks I read enough of these threads, yes I am educated. Many people emigrate for many reasons. And if genocide is not systemic racism what is. Anyway these comments are mainly for other readers, because the Jewish Holocaust has been mentioned but not the Albanian Serb genocide which was only 20 or so years ago.

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 17:02

There is no point in arguing with you, yes you can change a thread title even if it is a continuation,
Yes and I can also not change the title as I've chosen to do.

yes thanks I read enough of these threads, yes I am educated.
Great.

Many people emigrate for many reasons.
Black people didn't emigrate, we were enslaved.

And if genocide is not systemic racism what is. Anyway these comments are mainly for other readers, because the Jewish Holocaust has been mentioned but not the Albanian Serb genocide which was only 20 or so years ago.

OP posts:
Smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 08/06/2020 17:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RiceBubbless · 08/06/2020 17:11

Come on, many Black people in Britian today emigrated. Windrush? Anyway I am glad you at least recognize Aboriginal Australians as black. I will be marching in support of them on Saturday

Smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 08/06/2020 17:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 17:13

Come on, many Black people in Britian today emigrated. Windrush?
And they're being deported daily.

Anyway I am glad you at least recognize Aboriginal Australians as black. I will be marching in support of them on Saturday
I have Australian blood, why wouldn't I?

OP posts:
PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 17:14

Oh Patrick you are naughty. You haven't labelled the thread in the 'correct' way...why does that ring a bell?

Grin I forget I have to water everything down.

OP posts:
DeRigueurMortis · 08/06/2020 17:45

I've taken the time to read all the threads before posting and to think carefully about what I want to articulate.

This is obviously a very important and emotive topic and I'll do my best to put my views across with that in mind.

Also there's a lot of information to process over 4 threads and I'll apologise in advance and state that I'm happy to be corrected if I've misinterpreted anyone's comments.

Right, that said there's a lot to unpick here so I'll look to break my thoughts down according.

So I'm going to jump right in with the titles of the threads.

If you title a thread asking AIBU about white people not being subject to racism it's not surprising that posters will argue the merits or otherwise of that specific question and that doing so is not in fact, "whataboutary". It's discussing the premise of the thread in good faith.

Which brings me to my second point which is trying to understand what these threads are really about. If they are not meant to be a discussion centring a white experience, but rather a BLM perspective then what is the core of the message here?

My understanding of the OP's rationale is that white people cannot be subject to racism because they have the opportunity should they wish, to "opt out" from the prejudice they experience by choosing to "camouflage" their ethnic/religious identity by means such as changing names/accents/clothing/behaviour; something that a person who is the object of racism due to being black cannot do and as such the word racism should not be so broadly utilised.

In which case the topic at hand is not can white people experience racism but rather is the term racism itself to broad and should it be re-defined.

This I think is an interesting discussion and had the thread titles been focused on this I think a very different set of responses would have resulted.

That said I don't agree that all white ethnicities/religious actually do have the option to "opt out" of their oppression nor indeed should they have to.

As previous posters have explained there are physical characteristics that some of these people share that identify their background and are directly responsible for the prejudice and bigotry they encounter - irrespective of their name/accent/clothing. I myself have been in the company of non-orthodox Jewish colleges and seen them subject to anti-semitism by strangers simply because they are told they look Jewish (I mention non-orthodox specifically to demonstrate they were not wearing clothing that would outwardly indicate their religion).

It's also a fairly obvious point to make that if it was an option to camouflage your ethnic and religious origins so readily, then 6 million Jews and half the estimated Romany population of Europe would not have been sent to the gas chambers nor would Albanians in Kosovo been subject to genocide in the 90's.

One of the most important steps in tackling racism is to acknowledge it exists and that is again why the title of these threads is problematic, in the context of what many people describe as racism and what as a word it encapsulates.

If you say Travellers, Albanians and the Jewish community are not and cannot be subject to racism because you choose to re-define the word to only relate to skin colour the there's an argument to say you're actively disenfranchising their experiences something that's obviously upsetting and provocative.

On the other hand if your centring a discussion around the definition and application of the term racism a very different discussion ensues.

We have specific words to describe prejudice against the Muslim and Jewish communities, but not by way of example for Travellers, nor could you argue that experienced by BAME communities in that the latter falls under the term racism which is used as a "catch all" term for all acts of bigotry and prejudice.

So I do think there is merit in the OP's position that the term itself should be limited to specifically describe prejudice based on skin colour.

As an example why, if a Black Muslim is the subject of racism is that because he was black or because he was Muslim? If he was the subject of islamophobia it would be clear. It's also possible he was the subject of racism because he was both black and a Muslim, something that would not be true of a white Muslim who was described as being a subject of racist behaviour.

The issue a hand being that the use of the term racism when used as a "catch all" doesn't articulate the "double whammy" experience that black Muslim experienced in this scenario.

Equally it's also possible to argue that retaining the "catch all" nature of the word racism for all forms of prejudice is a option but there should be specific terminology used in common parlance to denote that which is derived from skin colour or a specific ethnicity such as Travellers.

In summary I do think these threads have raised some very important points and there have been many illuminating posts pertaining to the BLM movement and specificity what white people need to do to raise their game in tackling black oppression and both systematic and casual racism.

That said I think they could have been more productive if the premise of the discussion had been better articulated by the title.

AvranaKernsBestSpider · 08/06/2020 18:03

That said I think they could have been more productive if the premise of the discussion had been better articulated by the title

I would love to agree with this, but even yesterday there was a thread posted by a mum worried about her baby growing up black and there were still comments like “but black on black crime’ “but knife gangs!” “Well thanks for stereotyping all white people with the same brush” “I’m sick of people blaming their failures in life on being black in the U.K.”

DeRiguerMortis that’s not to take anything away from what you’ve said, it’s just my general feeling of despair about some posters on mumsnet.

DeRigueurMortis · 08/06/2020 18:52

I understand Avr and equally I hope you in turn understand that's not in the spirit that sentence was written - rather it's an important topic and any opportunity for more productive discussion is to be welcomed.

PlanDeRaccordement · 08/06/2020 19:42

Good post DeRiguer,

I agree the OP has made the premise about redefining racism to be only about skin colour. I can’t agree with re-defining racism to be discrimination based on skin colour alone because that definition then results in:

First defining what medium skin tone is the official boundary between white and black. Secondly, ignoring all other physical features. Then,

Redefining dark skinned white people, as black. This would then encompass most of the Latino/Hispanic race as they are of white European descent but tend to be dark skinned.

Redefining light skinned black people, as white. So they are no longer white-passing black people, but whites.

Erasing all other races because, for example, Asians can be milky white to darkest black in skin tone but still distinctly not white or black. So what becomes of us? Are we no longer Asian but white or black depending on whether we are lighter or darker than the official boundary skin tone?

If a person tans or bleaches their skin, do they then move between races?

DeRigueurMortis · 08/06/2020 20:21

You raise very good points Plan and that's what I meant about the premise opening up interesting discussions.

The idea that racism should only relate to skin colour presumes that everyone's racial identity is only encapsulated by that single characteristic when it's far more complex than that.

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 20:39

*So I'm going to jump right in with the titles of the threads.

If you title a thread asking AIBU about white people not being subject to racism it's not surprising that posters will argue the merits or otherwise of that specific question and that doing so is not in fact, "whataboutary". It's discussing the premise of the thread in good faith.*
It isn't surprising, no. It's still whataboutery.
This has been discussed many times, the title is a quick, sweeping, thought-provoking statement. Second to that, it's only white people who can fix racism, I gave to address them.
It doesn't matter how I title the thread, if it's about black lives white people will come along and make it about them. *

Which brings me to my second point which is trying to understand what these threads are really about. If they are not meant to be a discussion centring a white experience, but rather a BLM perspective then what is the core of the message here?*
The core is Black Lives Matter*

My understanding of the OP's rationale is that white people cannot be subject to racism because they have the opportunity should they wish, to "opt out" from the prejudice they experience by choosing to "camouflage" their ethnic/religious identity by means such as changing names/accents/clothing/behaviour; something that a person who is the object of racism due to being black cannot do and as such the word racism should not be so broadly utilised.*
No. That only comes into play when discussing other ethnic minorities.
The reason white people can't experience racism is because it's systemic.
*
In which case the topic at hand is not can white people experience racism but rather is the term racism itself to broad and should it be re-defined.*
It doesn't need to be redefined.
Pp quoted one definition.
Here is another:

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
*
This I think is an interesting discussion and had the thread titles been focused on this I think a very different set of responses would have resulted.*
I agree. *

That said I don't agree that all white ethnicities/religious actually do have the option to "opt out" of their oppression nor indeed should they have to. *
They shouldn't have to.
But they too possess white privilege.*

As previous posters have explained there are physical characteristics that some of these people share that identify their background and are directly responsible for the prejudice and bigotry they encounter - irrespective of their name/accent/clothing. *
They haven't explained this. They've made that point but no one has actually explained these characteristics.

I myself have been in the company of non-orthodox Jewish colleges and seen them subject to anti-semitism by strangers simply because they are told they look Jewish (I mention non-orthodox specifically to demonstrate they were not wearing clothing that would outwardly indicate their religion).
Anti-semitism is different to racism.
Some jewish people can possess white privilege too depending on how one chooses to define who is/ can be jewish.
*
It's also a fairly obvious point to make that if it was an option to camouflage your ethnic and religious origins so readily, then 6 million Jews and half the estimated Romany population of Europe would not have been sent to the gas chambers nor would Albanians in Kosovo been subject to genocide in the 90's.*
It's nothing to do with camouflaging.
It's to do with skin colour.*

One of the most important steps in tackling racism is to acknowledge it exists and that is again why the title of these threads is problematic, in the context of what many people describe as racism and what as a word it encapsulates.*
It isn't problematic at all.
The titles and subsequent threads have caused many to rethink and then understand racism against black people and how much it differs to what they have experienced.*

If you say Travellers, Albanians and the Jewish community are not and cannot be subject to racism because you choose to re-define the word to only relate to skin colour the there's an argument to say you're actively disenfranchising their experiences something that's obviously upsetting and provocative.*
Again, I haven't redefined it.
Loads of things are upsetting to us all. What I've done with these threads is address racism unapologetically. *

That said I think they could have been more productive if the premise of the discussion had been better articulated by the title.*
I disagree.

OP posts:
june2007 · 08/06/2020 20:44

So with out scrawling through 19 pages worth. Has this discussion actually progressed from the last 3 discussions or is it going round in circles?

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 20:46

Bold fail.
MN have promised we will get quotation within 2 weeks!

OP posts:
PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 20:47

So with out scrawling through 19 pages worth. Has this discussion actually progressed from the last 3 discussions or is it going round in circles?
It has progressed but not with new posters coming along and repeating things

OP posts:
Choconuttolata · 08/06/2020 22:01

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=eprints.bournemouth.ac.uk/21409/1/Layers%2520of%2520Blackness%2520-%2520Colourism%2520in%2520the%2520African%2520Diaspora%2520by%2520Deborah%2520Gabriel%2520OFFICIAL.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiXtIS__vLpAhVbhlwKHckfCEY4ChAWMAJ6BAgIEAE&usg=AOvVaw2tGTV7MpgK_7MPPrg02dJM" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Colourism in the African Diaspora an informative look at what has driven Colourism.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=jesp.org/index.php/jesp/article/view/253/215&ved=2ahUKEwiXtIS__vLpAhVbhlwKHckfCEY4ChAWMAd6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw2rXo1zr1zZtkhfioi7PjSw" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">An informative look at Racism.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1072%26context%3Dbfa&ved=2ahUKEwiXtIS__vLpAhVbhlwKHckfCEY4ChAWMAZ6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw0sJPyZwPLVHXVXF93_CUUu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Black stereotyping

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1362480616677493&ved=2ahUKEwiTnv22_vLpAhXGQ0EAHVlgDbsQFjAGegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw0V7i80kTxJxpPq-ZMDn3vp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Dehumanisation of black people and policing

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D3659%26context%3Dgc_etds&ved=2ahUKEwiTnv22_vLpAhXGQ0EAHVlgDbsQFjAJegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw3fYKR8nLj58pHkjVGyMe6x" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The influence of slavery on the black body.

You need to read to see how deep racism goes. Hundreds of years, millions of people killed and traumatised and many more in the future if we do not look at this openly and do our best individually to recognise our own roles in perpetuating the system of oppression of black people.

This is not to say other people, races and ethnic groups are not oppressed, experience racial discrimination and in some cases are the victims of genocide (which may be racially or non racially motivated). They all have their own stories to tell and we should listen to them too, just not on this thread which is about white systemic power structures and racism towards black people.

Oh and yes some black people emigrated to the UK, but they were coming from the Caribbean because their ancestors were taken as slaves to the Caribbean. Incidentally many were British citizens or children of British citizens (pre colonial independence) promised a better life here if they came to help once again prop up Britain and it's economy by working for it after the war. The treatment they received on arrival was anything but. Embedding state hostility - The Institute of Race Relations paper on the Windrush Scandal.

Choconuttolata · 08/06/2020 22:13

Handing over Africa's wealth - New Colonialism.

R1R2 · 09/06/2020 00:14

[quote Blursula]This is a good article

onbeing.org/blog/what-i-said-when-my-white-friend-asked-for-my-black-opinion-on-white-privilege/[/quote]
Thanks that was a interesting read.

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