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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

You're white. You haven't experienced racism

999 replies

PatricksRum · 04/06/2020 00:29

I'm so sick of repeating myself today.
AIBU or is ignorance just bliss?

OP posts:
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23
randomchatter · 04/06/2020 09:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AllTheUserNamesAreTaken · 04/06/2020 09:54

I’ve only read the first few pages of the threat but my thoughts are that whether you agree with the op’s definition of racism being about prejudice and power doesn’t really matter (for what it’s worth I don’t agree with that definition)

Even if you as a white person have experienced what you consider a racist incident, it might have been horrendous, but it will not be the same as a black person experiences.
The racism experienced by black people is throughout their life and is not just individual but systemic. That is why it is so much worse.
In the same way that men have very probably experienced a sexist incident at some point during their life, which may have upset them, but will not have experienced sexism to the extent women have

CandyLeBonBon · 04/06/2020 09:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

merrymouse · 04/06/2020 09:57

If people have no argument other than one based on pedantry then they have no fucking argument, even if they don't realise that themselves.

Maybe, but if the goal is to change society rather than to feel that you have won an argument, that doesn't get you very far.

I know I have white privilege, but the problem is that lots of people don't feel very privileged and the meaning of the word 'privilege' is no longer very clear.

Instead of acknowledging the specific systematic and historical reasons for inequality, all kinds of discrimination are lumped together into an amorphous, meaningless mass where we score privilege points instead of solving the specific problems that lead to inequality.

The same thing happened when Corbyn talked about 'all kinds of racism' rather than specifically address anti-semitism.

TatianaBis · 04/06/2020 09:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CandyLeBonBon · 04/06/2020 10:00

I was just thinking that@TatianaBis - I'm really hoping the pp meant that somehow differently to the way I read it. If not I'm reporting it.

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 04/06/2020 10:00

Cadent
OP and others have repeatedly stated that white people (including Jewish people) cannot suffer racism.

On that basis it is implicit that the holocaust was not racist.

This is an unacceptable position to many.

Wishingstarr · 04/06/2020 10:00

Tatiana sarcasm clearly.

bubblev · 04/06/2020 10:00

@TatianaBis I think that was sarcasm

walkingchuckydoll · 04/06/2020 10:01

@Cadent

Plenty of posts on this thread saying that jews aren't a race and any discrimination they face isn't real. My grandparents are camp survivors and I find those views disgusting.

If you don't want my good luck then I happily take it back. Not a lot will change if this kind of aggression is the way people want to get equality. I was with BLM till I read this disgusting thread. Dividing the people was never the solution.

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 04/06/2020 10:02

I am mixed race.

When I visit the country my mother is from in the West Indies, not everyone is friendly. There are people who don't seem to respect me much because of the colour of my skin. They try to take advantage if they can. They make snide comments about how I will never fit in.

In the country I live in, the UK, I have been forced to leave my childhood home in the middle of the night with my family so that the people who were attacking us didn't know we were moving. We had stones thrown at us if we were playing in the garden, eggs on our windows, the door was broken several times because they enjoyed kicking a basketball against it repeatedly just to hear my mother cry, because they didn't like the fact that my white father married a black woman. We were never allowed to play outside for the years that we lived there. I was often aft raid to fall asleep.

I've always been taught never to go into a supermarket with a shopping bag because I will be presumed to be a thief. I've been overlooked and belittled many, many times.

The way I felt in the West Indies was unfortunate, uncomfortable. They were rude. I got over it. I wouldn't be afraid to go back again.

The way I feel in the UK is frightening.

That's the difference between what people think racism is, and what it actually is.

Tappering · 04/06/2020 10:02

It doesn't make any difference at all to people who are subjected to it.

The label you give it doesn't matter.

But the point of this discussion is understanding the differences. These are important, because racism is built on years of subjugation and structural discrimination.

Racism is about poorer educational outcomes for black children, a higher mortality rate for black mothers who give birth, a higher death rate for black men who are stopped by the police in the US, and so on.

Racial discrimination (e.g. white girls are easy) can happen to anyone anywhere, but whilst it's awful and shouldn't happen, it's not racism. That's because racism is an entrenched systemic attitude built over centuries that will actively and consistently affect people of colour and those most affected by this are black.

I don't understand tho. White people are not and have never been in power in Japan. The Japanese policy of total exclusion of all foreigners in the colonial period was extremely effective in that regard.

No they haven't. But the Japanese didn't build an entire society based on the systemic subjugation and enslavement of white people.

Iamagree · 04/06/2020 10:02

@Randomchatter Perhaps there's a physiological difference in black men that causes them to die when a man kneels on his neck, and others have their weight on his chest! Can we all just move on already and stop talking about racism and black people?!
This is appalling - I don't know where to start. Do you honestly think the police routinely kneel on everyone's neck? Do you think for a second it's an approved form of restraint (even if any restraint at all was justified in this particular case?). You want people to stop talking about this? There are no words.

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 04/06/2020 10:03

Belfasteast

I feel exactly like you. The statements that it is not black people's job to educate. Ok, but then please don't criticise people doing their absolute well intentioned best to identify appropriate material to read in amongst the squillion databytes of shite out there.

SporadicNamechange · 04/06/2020 10:03

@Handsoffisback

e16er that is bloody awful and I can fully believe it. I have friends in East London and their son is going through hell at school at the moment as one of only two white children in his class. The bullying is disgusting. He is 8 poor love. They are considering moving back to Essex to escape it.
This is also an example of how, at very small scales, power structures can look very different to at larger scales. Yes, you have to consider the bigger picture in thinking about how to address it. But it doesn’t make it any easier for the kid no one will play with because he’s got white skin.
CandyLeBonBon · 04/06/2020 10:03

@AMemeByAnyOtherName I'm sorry you've experienced that. Things must change.

Mittens030869 · 04/06/2020 10:04

No they haven't. But the Japanese didn't build an entire society based on the systemic subjugation and enslavement of white people.

The soldiers tortured in Japanese prison camps would beg to differ on that point.

wafflyversatile · 04/06/2020 10:04

Black lives do matter. I wish people would protest about the victims of black knife crime, but it doesn't seem to matter when it is black gangs stabbing others black gang members Why not? where is your anger for the disproportionate numbers of deaths as a result of knife crime?

There are often marches about this. Perhaps you just dont notice them.

RandomUser3049 · 04/06/2020 10:05

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

BlackLikeMe · 04/06/2020 10:05

@MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing

Racial Prejudice is the expression of an opinion. Racism is the experience of people who suffer disadvantage as a result of the racial prejudice of others. Racism is an experience, not an expression.

Simples.

I've name changed for this. I haven't read the whole thread, just the first and the last pages, but I can just imagine the arguing over 27 pages! The quote above more or less encapsulates what, for me, is the difference. It has nothing to do with being a majority or a minority. I grew up black in a country that was majority black or brown, with white people at the very pinnacle of the societal hierarchy.

This does something to the psyche, especially as a child. You grow up with a deep sense of knowing you are unworthy and will never be worthy, can never be worthy, because of your skin colour. You grow up wishing you were white, because that's the only way to be worthy. This is what your society teaches you.

Later, living in a majority white country, I tried to teach my children otherwise. I had overcome my own deepseated sense of inferiority, but I believe something so ingrained is almost impossible to uproot. I didn't want my children to go through this.

I remember well my daughter asking, why is it that all the cleaners in the supermarket are black? Wondering why all the people with status and importance were white.

I remember admiring, all through my youth, the self confidence and sense of entitlement white people seemed to have, especially in their dealings with people of colour. There seemed to be an automatic assumption of superiority -- very well masked, it is true, but there all the time.

There is something about dark skin that somehow makes people of light skin wary, uneasy, a sense of "difference" -- even those who are kind and caring and so not demonstrate prejudice.

When people of dark skin turn the tables and start hating whites, it's not because they think they are superior. It's a defense; it's a shield against presumed attack. Reverse racism is not a real thing. The motivation is quite different.

Now, I have many very dear white friends. Nobody really knows of the struggle I had to attain the confidence in life I now demonstrate. I've attained some manner or "success", which earns me praise from white people; but the wounds are still there and deep inside, I do remember.

It's these experiences I wish to convey when white people say "I experience racism too! It's exactly the same!"

No, it isn't.
I believe that deep inside we are all one, that white and black are so superficial as to be of no meaning whatsoever. But as in the quote above, anyone who has experienced that deep sense of basic unworthyness, invalidity, will have a harder battle.

I've never made a great deal of this or asked for pity or understanding. But just imagine it. Imagine, just as one example, if for you, as a white child, every single child's book that was read to you, or you read yourself, had only black characters. Every single character in every book was black. Not one single white character. Ever.

How would you have felt? (I know a lot has changed since then. But this was my reality.)

Tappering · 04/06/2020 10:06

@randomchatter I have reported your post as that comment is so outrageously offensive it's beyond belief.

If you are 'bored' of the conversation then feel free to fuck off somewhere else and not participate in this thread. I always find myself quite baffled by people who post solely to complain that people are talking about something that doesn't interest them.

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 04/06/2020 10:07

Im sorry but in the UK i don't think the UK "built a society based on the systemic enslavement of non white people".

It is one factor in our history - a huge and horrifying one. It is not what our society is based on.

SporadicNamechange · 04/06/2020 10:07

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Sporadicnamechange

This is my point.

I do believe that power structures that favour white people are the majority, and certainly in the West, but to pretend there are no other power structures/systems in the world is short sighted and rather colonially patronising to those other structures by implying they do not matter internationally.

Oh absolutely.

Sadly, many people (on this I thread/on SM generally) seem determined to assert that the power structures in their culture are totally universal.

TatianaBis · 04/06/2020 10:08

@Wishingstarr

There’s so much racial ignorance on this thread it’s hard to tell.

LaLaletsgo · 04/06/2020 10:09

@AMemeByAnyOtherName

I am mixed race.

When I visit the country my mother is from in the West Indies, not everyone is friendly. There are people who don't seem to respect me much because of the colour of my skin. They try to take advantage if they can. They make snide comments about how I will never fit in.

In the country I live in, the UK, I have been forced to leave my childhood home in the middle of the night with my family so that the people who were attacking us didn't know we were moving. We had stones thrown at us if we were playing in the garden, eggs on our windows, the door was broken several times because they enjoyed kicking a basketball against it repeatedly just to hear my mother cry, because they didn't like the fact that my white father married a black woman. We were never allowed to play outside for the years that we lived there. I was often aft raid to fall asleep.

I've always been taught never to go into a supermarket with a shopping bag because I will be presumed to be a thief. I've been overlooked and belittled many, many times.

The way I felt in the West Indies was unfortunate, uncomfortable. They were rude. I got over it. I wouldn't be afraid to go back again.

The way I feel in the UK is frightening.

That's the difference between what people think racism is, and what it actually is.

Thank you for putting it in a way everyone should be able to understand.
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