For those of you that think ‘all lives matter’ heres a quick and easy explanation

[TeddyIsaHe]

MN can be extremely racist at times, most posters that have been here for a while will know this.

All lives can’t matter until black lives do. It’s something we ALL need to understand and I think this makes it very easy for people to grasp.

@flaxmeadow I am well aware of the case you are talking about and the comments he made were vile. Not disputing that in the slightest but that was only part of the court case, what was not made very public was one of the mixed race victims had to re-locate completely as one of the members was posting dog shit through her letter box and harassing her older sibling aswell as slashing the tyres of her relatives car.
The case in Derbyshire had a higher percentage of black victims than the other ones (as far as I am aware) yet the only part that got mentioned in the media was "Asian gangs raping white girls" THAT is a privilege in itself, just imagine for a second being a non-white victim and seeing that, going through an awful ordeal, giving evidence, suffering mentally for the rest of your life just to have the media portray it in that way.

My inlaws come from the North. They have definitely benefited from White Privilege. What really fucks them off and worries them is the possibility that they might lose it. Poor souls.

Especially the pale, male and stale misogynistic one.

When I think of the term 'white privilege' I always think the 'male' has been removed from the middle of it.

I think the prejudice seems more directed by men against other men.

Being othered from birth has an insidious impact and effects the way people try to access help in the first place.

Yes I can understand this

Black girls are sexualised by society more than their white counterparts.

I'm not sure about this

Black people aren't seen as worthy enough victims. How many news outlets have reported the abuse of the black victims of grooming gangs?

I'm not saying there have been no black victims of grooming gangs. The BAME victims if grooming gangs I've read about have been the children of white women who were also the victims of grooming gangs or forced prostitution. Which gives some insight I to how long this has been a problem

My question is

How do you explain to the white victim of a grooming gang who has been

Is from a multi ethnic neighbourhood
Targeted for being white within her neighbourhood
Ignored by authorities because the perpetrators were BAME
Racially abused while the crimes were committed

How is this white privilege

Is Afua Hirsch, a black middle class media pundit and writer, who had a very privileged upbringing, less privileged just because she is black? Less privileged than the white working class victim I mention above from a deprived part of England

Is Afua Hirsch, a black middle class media pundit and writer, who had a very privileged upbringing, less privileged just because she is black?

She is less privileged than a white middle class media pundit and writer, who had a very privileged upbringing. White Privilege is not about comparing black barristers to white binmen. It's about the difficulties faced by black barristers and black binmen that their white colleagues never faced.

They benefit from white privileged because they are born into a predominantly white society, their culture, society and history validate and glorify white culture - it teaches them that they are both accepted and acceptable. It’s not about whether they might experience discrimination, even racism or not - it’s the fact that that experience still takes place in a cultural backdrop where they are the accepted norm in terms of identity, culture and social status. There were many things that made them vulnerable to grooming and abuse, and societal values about women, sex and sexuality that meant assumptions were made about their capacity and motivation and behaviours which acted to prolong and perpetuate their ordeal.

The crimes committed against them were horrific, they were targeted because they were girls and had some vulnerability to being groomed. There was a clear racial divide between their abusers and the girls concerned, the issues with police and being disbelieved are much more about societies attitude towards “troubled” teens, female sexuality and an lack of understanding of abuse and power in relationships. Those girls experienced prejudice and discrimination - one of those situations where a range of disadvantages (being female, prior trauma, looked after status) intersect with devastating effect.

Those girls were utterly let down by the system, there’s no denying that but to bring their plight into a discussion about black people being killed by police is a bit of a straw man, and a distasteful one at that.

There was a clear racial divide between their abusers and the girls concerned,

Sorry that should read there wasn’t a clear racial divide... bloody phone.

Blanket accusations of MN being extremely racist won't help you, OP. Discredits you from the off - and your point deserves more than that.

yet the only part that got mentioned in the media was "Asian gangs raping white girls" THAT is a privilege in itself

This is your answer to the girl repeatedly called "white slag" while being punched in the face and gang raped.

Many of these gangs only targeted white girls. They admitted it in court

How do you explain the American theory of WP to those particular victims?

Flax, have you been asked these questions by white victims of grooming gangs?

Evening, everyone.

This is such an important thread. We really don't want to have to make deletions because we think it's a conversation that should be had openly, challenges made in a civil way where necessary, and hopefully lessons learned in a useful way, that will allow others just lurking to see it and gain from it, too.

Let's all make sure all our posts are within talk guidelines and that we are considereing carefully how our words might be read and understood. It really would be so crappy to end up with a thread with holes in here, or to have to take this down.

Mumsnet, like anywhere, is definitely not immune to racism though we do our best to stamp it out. But it be somewhere that very honest, civil conversations happen that change ingrained views. Let's make sure we're all open to that and posting in a way that is helping that to happen.

and strength and honour to any of you affected in any way by the awful events of recent days - and similar events the world over, over the last many years. And thank you for making your voices heard here.

No, it's not my answer to any victim of a sexual power driven crime. It's my answer to people like yourself, the media and anyone else who seems to disregard white privilege and use an awful crime to some how dispute it.

The white victims, in what was a horrific ordeal were not born into hatred. They had probably never faced racism, prejudice or discrimination based on their skin colour before in their lives and most likely wont in the future.
The fact you are still disregarding the black victims just shows the point of white privilege, they're the only ones who matter right?
I'm very very sure, the girls you speak of would be sickened to think someone is using their horror as a way of deflecting BLM and white privilege.

As a victim of a grooming gang myself, it is a fucking disgusting comparison.

@Flaxmeadow

• How do you explain to the white victim of a grooming gang who has been

Is from a multi ethnic neighbourhood
Targeted for being white within her neighbourhood
Ignored by authorities because the perpetrators were BAME
Racially abused while the crimes were committed

How is this white privilege*

Yes, you keep using this as an example as if it counteracts the FACT thats white privilege exists. It’s akin to saying because Oprah and Barak Obama exist, then racism is a myth. Just irrational. There will inevitably be parts of society less fortunate than others that’s the way the system is set up. There has to be poor people for wealth to exist. So to say that White privilege doesn’t exist because a portion of society have been the target if horrific abuse is not really proof that it doesn’t.

They benefit from white privileged because they are born into a predominantly white society, their culture, society and history validate and glorify white culture - it teaches them that they are both accepted and acceptable.

I'm not sure this is true to young white people in a city like say for example Bradford

It’s not about whether they might experience discrimination, even racism or not - it’s the fact that that experience still takes place in a cultural backdrop where they are the accepted norm in terms of identity, culture and social status.

Their experience is of racism in urban working class multicultural north of England, which has its own norms and culture.

There is a certain kind of criminal gang. Organised crime actually and it relates to police corruption. At least two police officers have been, or are about to be, in court in relation to this crime. It is also related to the trafficking of heroin. Can you imagine the kind of power these criminals weald in these towns and cities. The fear they instill in local people

There were many things that made them vulnerable to grooming and abuse, and societal values about women, sex and sexuality that meant assumptions were made about their capacity and motivation and behaviours which acted to prolong and perpetuate their ordeal.

As Theresa May said when the Jay Report was published. It's called "institutional political correctness"

The crimes committed against them were horrific, they were targeted because they were girls and had some vulnerability to being groomed. There was a clear racial divide between their abusers and the girls concerned, the issues with police and being disbelieved are much more about societies attitude towards “troubled” teens, female sexuality and an lack of understanding of abuse and power in relationships. Those girls experienced prejudice and discrimination - one of those situations where a range of disadvantages (being female, prior trauma, looked after status) intersect with devastating effect.

The girls gave evidence that they were racially targeted and racially abused

Those girls were utterly let down by the system, there’s no denying that but to bring their plight into a discussion about black people being killed by police is a bit of a straw man, and a distasteful one at that.

The discussion includes, and has been mostly about, the theory of white privilege

I'm asking how would posters explain this theory to a racially targeted and abused white victim of a grooming gang in the north of England. She is sat in front of you. Explain it to her

Yes, you keep using this as an example as if it counteracts the FACT thats white privilege exists.

I haven't given an opinion on that. I asked how would you explain it in the cases I mention

It’s akin to saying because Oprah and Barak Obama exist, then racism is a myth. Just irrational. There will inevitably be parts of society less fortunate than others that’s the way the system is set up. There has to be poor people for wealth to exist. So to say that White privilege doesn’t exist because a portion of society have been the target if horrific abuse is not really proof that it doesn’t

Horrific racist abuse by wealthy and powerful gangs protected by the authorities

I'm not sure this is true to young white people in a city like say for example Bradford

Do you live in Bradford?

@Flaxmeadow

Horrific racist abuse by wealthy and powerful gangs protected by the authorities

No one has argued otherwise? What is your point. I really don’t understand what you are trying to say?

This thread makes me angry.

Agree with your OP and agree with your analogy.

Fact is people are protesting because actual murder has been committed through police brutality. Disproportionately black people have been the victims. Of course this is cause for protest.

Yes, there are many other injustices to protest about. Even similar cases against different sectors of the community. But these shouldn't be uses to distract from this particular injustice.

However, I think it can be difficult as a white person to know exactly how to engage in the dialogue. We have not experienced the same prejudice and tempts at drawing comparisons of one type prejudice to another in an attempt to empathise can distract from the issue. People are understandably very upset, angry and outraged. I think the only response is to be outraged, angry and upset as you would be for any loved one.

What is your point.

I don't really have one.

I was reading the thread, which has been mostly about the Amercian theory of white privilege, and posed a question about how it would be explained to particular people in England. I'm interested in reading the answers

Just to reply to previous poster about not knowing how to engage being white. Well I do because I read, I think , I'm aware of history. Are you seriously asking for guidance on this? Do you need a book list? I fucking horrified by your lack of awareness, you live in the world, you have had every opportunity to see this and now you want guidance? Fuck off!

I don't really have one

Yes I think we worked that one out.

Well I do because I read, I think , I'm aware of history. Are you seriously asking for guidance on this? Do you need a book list?

No! And I think your anger is misplaced. Are you telling me reading the right book list could replicate the actual experience of racial prejudice? All I am doing is realistically acknowledging this when I say it is difficult to fully engage as a white person. (Just as it is difficult for a man to fully engage in feminism)

I'm a staunch athiest, however a Christian friend put it like this.

'Look up Luke 15, there are 100 sheep and one goes missing. Jesus leaves the 99 and goes to look for the one that is missing. 'What about us? Don't we matter?' Of course they still matter, but they're not the ones in danger'

I can't comment on the accuracy of this that is taken from the bible, but nonetheless I thought it a good way of thinking about it, for those saying 'all lives matter'.