To think the lockdown needs to end now?

[Fr0thandBubble]

I could understand a lockdown being imposed for a few weeks to make sure the NHS was up to capacity, but it’s gone well beyond that. The NHS now has lots of excess capacity and yet here we still are.

I am horrified by what has happened to our civil liberties, what it’s doing to our children’s education, what it’s doing to everyone’s livelihoods and mental health, what it’s doing to the economy, how people are not getting life-saving treatment for things like cancer, etc.

I don’t understand why people aren’t given the right to choose to self-isolate if they need to but for the rest of us to be allowed to get on with our lives and to take responsibility for ourselves.

I don’t understand why people who are not old and don’t have underlying health conditions are acting hysterically and why people have decided it’s OK to police other people’s behaviour and shout at them in the street.

I feel like I’m living in some kind of awful dystopian society.

I realise I’m in the minority here but does anyone agree with me?

We've "protected" the NHS by sacrificing a lot of other lives. It is not arrogant to point that out and experts get things wrong especially when they're trying to avoid being sued, which is generally the case in the NHS.

Weighing up the benefits of treatment for cancer versus the risk of getting infected is not an exact science so I wouldn't say they got it wrong if it turns out that the patient would have been better off having a treatment. However the point is that they are doing so and they are more likely to get it right then someone who doesn't know the patient or the drug that they are being treated with. Cancer treatments are not been cancelled because of lockdown. It will either be because of NHS reorganisation which is nothing to do with lockdown or it will be because the risks for an individual patient are considered to outweigh the benefits. Rather than go on anecdotal evidence perhaps read this link to find out what is happening.

www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancer-in-general/coronavirus/cancer-treatment

People just choose not to acknowledge this though. Because we haven't had pictures of patients lying on the floors in corridors it means it was all an over reaction you know.

No sorry, it is a fact, based on NHS statistics, that even at the peak of the virus the NHS had plenty of spare capacity. I have no doubt that there were individual hospitals / wards/ staff that were under pressure, but these are anecdotal accounts and do not reflect the general picture.

They've just announced that masks will need to be worn on public transport from 15th June so presumably it's not all over and done with.

@mrpumblechook but nhs reorganisation was because of covid! You are right it’s not a consequence of lockdown per se, but it’s part of the same mentality- “protect the nhs” / cancel everything / stop everything to deal with the overwhelming and all encompassing existential threat to our society that COVID presents.

Honestly it is a lie, plane and simple, to say that patients only had their cancer treatment stopped in cases where it was in their best interests, based on individualised clinical judgements. That may have happened in some cases, but lots of people’s treatment was stopped because hospitals were reoriented to focus on Covid.

*plain not plane

While I have every sympathy with cancer patients, can I gently point out that there are other life threatening conditions that people are being denied treatment for. I am genuinely pleased that cancer treatment is resuming. At the same time, I'd rather like my DH to get the appointment(s) he needs, so that we can find out if his estimated life expectancy of 5-10 years is likely to be nearer 5 or 10.

but nhs reorganisation was because of covid! You are right it’s not a consequence of lockdown per se, but it’s part of the same mentality- “protect the nhs” / cancel everything / stop everything to deal with the overwhelming and all encompassing existential threat to our society that COVID presents.

I am not saying that it was correct to reorganise the NHS. I am just saying that it was independent of lockdown and would have happened anyway. If we hadn't had lockdown and the NHS had become overwhelmed then the situation would have been even worse for people with cancer not better. In addition, cancer treatments often suppress the immune system which would put the person at high risk of dying from Covid. Again, lockdown itself has made the situation better for these patients rather than worse as it has reduced the risk of infection.

The hysteria and the media have taken over and things aren't getting any better.

@BamboozledandBefuddled absolutely. Definitely important point- it’s not all about cancer treatment- that’s just one example.

@mrpumblechook none of these things (lockdown, cancelling other forms of medical treatment) were inevitable. They were policy choices. Wrong headed policy choices in my view, based on an irrational overreaction/ panicked response to Covid.

Some of you are highlighting non Covid related medical treatment being suspended and I get it, I'm waiting for treatment and want things to hurry up and restart but how do you think lifting lockdown and letting everyone out and about is going to get the NHS back on track? If they are premature in lifting lockdown and a second wave hits quickly then they'll have to suspend normal service in the NHS again so what will you have achieved?

I take your point though - theoretically lockdown could have happened without reorganising the NHS and vice versa. I think they came together, though, because they were part of the same policy response to COVID, based on the theory/ science that COVID was going to spread through the population like wildfire, overwhelm the NHS and lead to preventable deaths. Therefore the priority became to protect NHS capacity at all costs. That meant cancelling other treatments and reorganising the NHS, whilst slowing the spread by locking down the population.

I just can't comprehend the hypocrisy of a lockdown after encouraging and allowing protests to happen. But what else do we expect from Mr Khan.
Fuck the government.
Open your businesses in defiance. If the protests can have people rubbing shoulders together, so can your businesses.
And our children should be able to go back to school normally, fuck the bubbles too.

We was born with an immune system not a mask this bullshit needs to stop.

none of these things (lockdown, cancelling other forms of medical treatment) were inevitable. They were policy choices. Wrong headed policy choices in my view, based on an irrational overreaction/ panicked response to Covid.

I have not stated anywhere that it was correct to reorganise the NHS or cancel appointments. However, it is a completely separate issue to whether we should have had lockdown. It is also nonsensical to state that if lockdown is lifted people would be more likely to get treatment as clearly it would be the other way around. Even if the treatment itself didn't increase the risk more infection leads to more hospital admissions, busier hospitals, fewer staff (if off sick) and more chance of getting infected if you go into hospital for another reason.

However, it is a completely separate issue to whether we should have had lockdown

See my post above- I don’t think they are separate issues- I think they came together as part of the same policy response which was oriented around the need to protect nhs capacity.

I get what you are saying that if we lifted lockdown it would mean less nhs capacity for other forms of treatment , but that point of view is based on several assumptions that I don’t think are supported by the evidence.

Annyways we are probably going round in circles at this point.

See my post above- I don’t think they are separate issues- I think they came together as part of the same policy response which was oriented around the need to protect nhs capacity.

They may have come together as part of the same policy but that doesn't mean they have the same effect. If anything they have the opposite effect and it is not correct to state the appointments have been cancelled because of lockdown or to use the fact that people aren't getting treatment as a reason for stopping lockdown. Easing lockdown may improve many things now but increasing availability of NHS treatment for other conditions isn't one of them.

@mrpumblechook ok yes we are going round in circles. You are not getting my point- that’s fine, we can agree to disagree.

Great to hear that masks / face coverings will be a mandatory condition for travel on public transport. I hope this will be extended to other enclosed spaces eg shops which will help protect shop workers as well as shoppers. I hope a stronger messages on social distancing will also continue to be made.

ok yes we are going round in circles. You are not getting my point- that’s fine, we can agree to disagree.

I am getting your point that you think it is part of the same policy. I just think it is irrelevant to the debate of whether lockdown should stop. The fact that patient haven't been getting treated is certainly not a good reason for lifting lockdown.

“To those who think Covid was prioritised above all else by the NHS- part of the reason the hospitals weren’t overwhelmed is that so many people with Covid were denied hospital treatment until literally blue in the face. They were left at home to suffer and sometimes die on their own. “

This. I’ve got friends who begged for a ambulance and were told no not until their lips turned blue. One friend said she thought her husband was going to die. Another with a 6 year old who had caught it from school in February could barely get any advice as to how to treat a child as no one knew what to do - she was left alone to deal with a very sick child.

Another friend went into hospital to continue her cancer treatment. She caught Covid in hospital and died last week in London from Covid.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/04/coronavirus-infections-england-wales-hit-peak-days-lockdown/

Coronavirus infections in England and Wales hit peak days before lockdown, study finds

Modelling shows majority of people who died at peak would have been infected roughly five days before measures came in

Mirinska

Agree. Ok, they don’t protect the wearer, just others. But if everyone is wearing one, hey presto, they do both. Easy.
Really hope though that transport companies put in place very good security measures for their staff, visors, Perspex screens etc. I can well imagine some people unwilling to comply, not in excepted groups, getting very nasty with the staff. We can’t have any more deaths because a transport worker has been spat at our coughed on. Inhuman.

@Chillipeanuts

Listened to Stefan Löfven on the radio yesterday, saying that with hindsight a lot of their policies were wrong.

Do you mean Anders Tegnell? His regrets hinge on care homes (which comprise half their deaths, similarly to the UK and NY).

I think it was spun pretty hard, Anders Tegnell tells DN.

He maintains that Sweden was right not lockdown.

www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/anders-tegnell-there-are-things-we-could-have-done-better/

@Coffeeandbeans, I’m so sorry to hear. I think there was also a thread on mumsnet by a single mum who was refused hospital treatment and was so unwell she had to teach her child what to do if he found her dead. Luckily I think she recovered. I keep thinking of her and many like her and hope she’s OK.

I thought it was the PM, Radio 4, yesterday lunchtime so probably Workd at Ine. Came into kitchen mid-interview though so could certainly be mistaken!

@Bizawit

People just choose not to acknowledge this though. Because we haven't had pictures of patients lying on the floors in corridors it means it was all an over reaction you know.

No sorry, it is a fact, based on NHS statistics, that even at the peak of the virus the NHS had plenty of spare capacity. I have no doubt that there were individual hospitals / wards/ staff that were under pressure, but these are anecdotal accounts and do not reflect the general picture.

The NHS generally 'does not cope' thorough winter months - if it were a more transparent organisation we could have all the statistics easily to hand of worrying high capacity utilisation, critical incidents service level breaches and so forth.

Moreover hospitals are generally not great places for vulnerable people to be, covid19 or no - this is not peculiar to 2020.

This whole re-organisation of the NHS according to coronavirus was certainly not future-proofed.