This government is deadly

[Haplap]

I mean very literally here given the 60 000 excess deaths. Not to mention the recent events with Dominic Cummings' version of reasonable and truthful and the Prime Minister's inability to sack him. I'm scared for what this means for the second wave.

I'm shielding and have two young children. I'm 37 and otherwise and fit and well. I'd rather not just pop off in to the statistics with 'underlining health conditions'.

My worry is, incredibly, people voted in this government for four years.

Are there any options available to replace them? Even just the terrible cabinet?

What do you mean by 60,000 excess deaths? Where do you get this figure from?

Are you comparing predicted deaths from covid with actual deaths? You know that Neil Ferguson's modelling predicted 100,000 deaths? Comparing actual deaths with that model, there have actually been 60,000 FEWER deaths. (Every death is a tragedy, they aren't just statistics).

You're confusing this with your dislike of the Conservatives. They're two separate issues.

And why are you shielding if you're fit and well?

You wouldn't have been instructed to do so unless you have a serious health condition.

Sucking, I'm referring to the figures from the ONS (Office of National Statistics):

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending15may2020

In the spirit of educating those ignorant to disabilities and not taking offense to your very clumsy question, I'll try and explain. There are some conditions, degenerative in my case, which whilst I can lead a full an active life normally, if I were to get covid I would likely become seriously ill, probably die, as my condition affects my heart and lungs. Please remember people can have complex medical needs and hidden disabilities. I've worked with people who have cystic fibrosis, Crohn's disease, muscular dystrophy and MS who unless they had told me, I would haven't known. Many people consider themselves fit and well despite their underling health condition. Remarks like yours can feel very dismissive and even offensive to some and mean people are less willing to share their challenges for fear of prejudice.

I'm well aware of hidden disabilities, thank you. I was responding to what you said about being fit and well. If you've been told to shield then obviously you need to.

I don't understand what you mean with regard to 60,000 'excess' deaths. Why do you think the government caused these deaths? Do you think it could have prevented all deaths due to covid 19? This seems unrealistic, to say the least.

No they probably could not prevent all deaths but for example, lockdown one week earlier would mean the excess deaths would be under 20,000 ..so that's 40,000 deaths they could easily have prevented

Kitten killing tories, are we really back to thus simplistic idiocy? You need to learn to read statistics.

@attackedbycritters

Can you please post evidence that there would have been 40,000 fewer deaths?

I think Haplap makes a very important point.
There is a horrible 'othering' of people who are sheilding or vulnerable, it almost a sense of 'oh well never mind about them, they were on their last legs anyway'. It is unacceptable, many who have died of covid with underlying conditions could have otherwise lived a long fulfilled life had they not caught the virus.
Not that im suggesting you did that Sucking, but it's understandable that she is a little defensive on the subject.

All governments are deadly, its part of the job descriptio n!

lockdown one week earlier would mean the excess deaths would be under 20,000

That was based on a crude back-of-fag-packet calculation centred on some extremely questionable assumptions. It made the news because it made for good news, not because it was an evidence-based figure.

The evidence that lockdown has made a significant difference at all is far from certain. Norway has now concluded that their lockdown was unnecessary and did not prevent deaths more than social distancing alone, and comparable countries with and without lockdown are showing the same curve on infections and deaths.

Hapling... I am here to say I understand... we are shielding too and I’m getting v v fed up with the ‘othering’ of people who are shielding. Some people’s attitudes- especially as time goes on leave a lot to be desired. I despair at what our country is coming too

'Excees deaths' is the term used to describe the number of deaths which is above the historical average number for that period of time.

It's beyond dispute now that, had the lockdown been put in place a week sooner, there would have been significantly fewer deaths.

Anyway, my question is - what options are available for getting a functional cabinet place?

How did I 'other' her? What attitude are you talking about?

I have an underlying health condition myself. Try not to read things which aren't there.

Japan has an older population and higher population density than the UK. They have had fewer than 1000 deaths. Our lock down was not half as strict as it should have been. There was no quarantining and testing of people coming into the country. PPE acquirement was woefully inadequate.

is that you Keir ?

Oh for goodness sake. The government isn’t deadly, Covid-19 is. And I say that as a die hard leftie.

Nobody will ever know what ‘could’ have happened if we’d locked down earlier, or for longer because there will never be any basis for comparison. The long term effects of lockdown and Covid will cause deaths too hence why our government tried to time it correctly. You were also more than welcome to shield before the official lockdown if you wanted and to shield for as long as you want after, nobody is stopping you.

@Haplap

'Excees deaths' is the term used to describe the number of deaths which is above the historical average number for that period of time.

It's beyond dispute now that, had the lockdown been put in place a week sooner, there would have been significantly fewer deaths.

Anyway, my question is - what options are available for getting a functional cabinet place?

Most people are well aware of what 'excess deaths' means.

If it's beyond dispute that there could have been significantly fewer, can you please indicate where your information comes from? Your ONS data didn't indicate this. You are arguing that 60,000 excess deaths were caused by the cabinet and you have offered no evidence for this. If you don't have evidence it will look as if you are making that figure up.

The cabinet does function. You dislike it because its a Conservative cabinet. The prime minister chooses it, you don't have a say. As a voter, your options are to exercise your vote at the next election. Consumer choice and democracy are two different things.

@SuckingDieselFella

Of course the government could have prevented some of these deaths - look around for world for several examples.

Of course the OP can be fit and well with a serious underlying condition.

Your attitude stinks

This is another revenge for Brexit thread.

That's democracy guys - get over it.

If you're slinging insults around, your attitude stinks too.

Unless you can provide examples and explain how the government could have prevented deaths in a UK context you're simply making stuff up.

"Anyway, my question is - what options are available for getting a functional cabinet place?"
There is a functioning cabinet. You may not like it, but that is the case.

The PM is in charge of appointing his cabinet. As long as he remains PM, he will choose his cabinet.

Google is your friend.

Well the government could have acted on our last pandemic preparedness report a few years ago which said stock of PPE were too low. The government could have shut airports and quarantined travellers sooner. The government could have looked at Italy and started buying PPE in February and putting preparations in place. We could have looked at Korea and started researchign track and trace and upping production of PPE much sooner. The government could have stuck to a clear message. I think we can safely say the government fucked up. Whether that makes them directly responsible for every excess death is another question

This is another revenge for Brexit thread. That's democracy guys - get over it.

I cannot understand this claim. It suggests that the only people unhappy about how the government have handled this crisis are people who voted Remain, which is clearly not the case.

The evidence from other nations makes clear that we've suffered more deaths than if the crisis had been taken more seriously and action taken earlier. It has nothing to do with Brexit - claiming this means this government can never be criticised for anything. I'm afraid that won't wash.

According the modelling of scientist James Annan, if the UK had locked down one week earlier we'd have seen only a quarter of the reported deaths we suffered, about the same as in Germany. Just one week would have saved all those lives.

bskiesresearch.wordpress.com/2020/05/14/why-cant-the-germans-be-more-like-us/

Kit Yates, Senior Lecturer in Mathematical Biology at the University of Bath, confirms that a week would have made that sort of difference if people had taken the lock down seriously.

researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en/persons/kit-yates

Sucking Diesel, I really recommend the radio programme 'more or less' it's on BBC sounds and is easy to access even if you're not in to maths.

Hancock laughing in an interview earlier, when asked about the deaths, made me cry. It wasn't one of those quick awkward smile/grimaces that are sometimes interpreted as laughing if you see a photo... he properly laughed and kept laughing.
No wonder death secretary is trending.