This government is deadly

[Haplap]

I mean very literally here given the 60 000 excess deaths. Not to mention the recent events with Dominic Cummings' version of reasonable and truthful and the Prime Minister's inability to sack him. I'm scared for what this means for the second wave.

I'm shielding and have two young children. I'm 37 and otherwise and fit and well. I'd rather not just pop off in to the statistics with 'underlining health conditions'.

My worry is, incredibly, people voted in this government for four years.

Are there any options available to replace them? Even just the terrible cabinet?

@HellloBambinos

Oh for goodness sake. The government isn’t deadly, Covid-19 is. And I say that as a die hard leftie.

Nobody will ever know what ‘could’ have happened if we’d locked down earlier, or for longer because there will never be any basis for comparison. The long term effects of lockdown and Covid will cause deaths too hence why our government tried to time it correctly. You were also more than welcome to shield before the official lockdown if you wanted and to shield for as long as you want after, nobody is stopping you.

I couldn't agree more.

So, there's hope of a vote of no confidence in the prime minister if the list of Tory MPs demanding he sack Dominic Cummings keeps growing? Think it was at 61 this morning.

I don't know about the number of deaths that could have been avoided if lockdown had been a week earlier but I do think there are things they could have done that they didn't. The Govt could have stopped flights into this country from Wuhan as soon as we became aware of the nature and severity of Covid-19 (but what would that have done to our relations with China?). I also think they could have enforced quarantine of british residents returning from Northern Italy.

Having said that, hindsight is a wonderful thing and there was an evolving situation and the Govt possibly based their actions on the previous SARS outbreak which didn't cause a pandemic.

I think all Govts in all countries, in hindsight, would probably do things differently but they don't have the benefit of hindsight at the time those decisions are made.

I don't think there is any point in criticism. Time for analysis and criticism (and hopefully praise in some areas too) when this is all behind us. For now, we have to make the best of a very bad situation.

Yes the lockdown should have been implemented sooner, but it isn’t just about that. South Korea hasn’t had a lockdown at all.

The real problem was the lack of testing and contact tracing. They started off doing it then stopped on 12th March. But even before that, it was flawed. I had symptoms from 21st Feb and my DD2 (8) in early March. When we phoned NHS 111 about her symptoms, we were told to go to A&E. The clinicians had no PPE and didn’t even consider COVID-19 to be a possibility after we said we hadn’t been in an ‘infected area overseas’ or been in direct contact with a confirmed case. We weren’t tested or told to self-isolate. And there were plenty of other people with similar experiences. It was a case of them behaving like ‘rabbits in the headlights’.

Cheltenham went ahead as did a Champion’s League match for Liverpool.

It really isn’t just down to not locking down sooner, though there would obviously have been fewer infections if that had happened.

Wanting Johnson to sack Cummings is not even close to a no confidence vote.I'd say we're nowhere near that and I doubt it will happen while covid is happening unless Johnson starts going into hospitals and smothering patients. Britain and indeed most countries don't tend to ditch their leader in a crisis

Haplap

Dominic Cummings has nothing to do with excess deaths. Why would you suggest he does? Some of those excess deaths may well have been caused by the NHS shutting down. Professor Karl Sikora has talked about 60,000 deaths from cancer caused by cancelled treatments and diagnoses. Any comment on that?

Drowsy, fear you're right. Leaves me feeling scared for my family and loved ones though. A lot of people seem unable unwilling to accept how badly the government handled it despite all the damning evidence. But, this cabinet are obviously out of their depth and might leave the sinking ship before the second wave to avoid the inevitable inquiry.

Bovary, very prominent SAGE scientists have warned the Dominic Cummings scandal will adversely affect the public's behaviour. It's the second wave I worry for now.

With freedoms we have (and expect and fought for) comes choice.

With the lack of freedoms in some of the countries cited here comes compliance.

How do you think the government should have operated? Does that take into account that the people here do not ’do as they’re told’ as many believe they’re personal circumstances are special?

Equally staggering is the blindness of people that Trump is behaving just like China - if you disagree with him you’re fired, removed, gagged, belittled or he uses executive orders !

There is the possibility that the Tory Party might turn on BoJo because of his refusal to sack Cummings. But that’s unlikely now, I think.

Especially now that Durham Police have confirmed that, although the Barnard Castle trip was indeed a minor breach of lockdown rules, they’ll take no action, as he didn’t break social distancing guidelines.

I think you may need to look at those excess mortality rates again. The picture is far more nuanmced than "60,000 more dead because of the government"

Start with it is COVID19 that is deadly. No member of the caninet has reached out and killed anyone!

Then an earlier lockdown might have reduced numbers. But it could have increased them: fewer cases in the UK would have meant a very slow rate of increase, with a low R, low spread the current kick back against lockdown might have happened at the peak R... which would have killed far more! We'll never know. Different models will model differently.

There have been other issues which might have made things far worse. The time for that autopsy is when all countries have very low R and time can be taken to look at all data, accurate, complete data that can be cross referenced. And no country currently has that, of necessity, so any comparison will be futile.

Oh, and Hancock laughing didn't kill anyone either! But Death Secretary makes a good headline!

And, yet again, just in case I too get the "Oh, is it impossible to criticise BJ etc?" response - I didn't vote for him; used to be a card carrying member of the Labour Party. I don't think he is above reproach, I just think that we, the nation as a whole, deserve to see constructive criticism about shit that matters right now and far less of the highly charged "whatifery". Cos that is just headlines doing what headlines do, politicking cos it is getting your 15 minutes in.

Ask about the state of PPE right now - where are the gaps in provision. I'm not bored of that one, but most journalists are. Only 1 regional journalist raised it and was given a good, common sense answer and promised more detail.

Ask about the global research into various drugs that might help. Lets see that being discussed, rather than having to hear about it piecemeal!

What about women, childcare, return to work and employers that either cannot or will not compromise?

All sorts of questions and criticisms that are relevant today, tomorrow, overmorrow We can do 3 months ago later!

Haplap

I thought you were concerned about excess deaths? I suggest you read what the prominent oncologist Karl Sikora says about the fact 30,000 patients present with cancer in an average April. What has happened to them? Where are they? As for the second wave. Do you think the UK can continue to enforce lockdown in a country with no AC as summer approaches? Lockdown is no longer sustainable.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-52393073

Between Weeks 1 and 12, 138,916 deaths were registered, which was 4,822 less than the five-year average for these weeks. However, between Weeks 13 and 20, 135,575 deaths were registered, which was 53,960 more than the five-year average. Week 20 showed a continuation of the decreasing trend in excess deaths (both involving COVID-19 and involving other causes) seen in Weeks 16 to 19 (Figure 2). We are continuing to investigate the number of non-COVID-19 related deaths and will publish detailed analysis on this in the future.
- ONS as linked by OP

Lots of different ways to spin that, if you want to write a scary headline!

Start with it is COVID19 that is deadly. No member of the caninet has reached out and killed anyone!

Jesus Christ 🤷🏽‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️

Lockdown is no longer sustainable. Indeed!

The young are out in force, many have been throughout.

The old are a mixed bag, and will continue to be

The vulnerable will remain vulnerable

The rest of us will have to make some hard choices.

All will continue to be guided by COVID guidelines:

• many will ignore what isn't convenient
• many will take a harder route

That's what we do!

Jesus Christ What! OP can reach for the hyperbole but others cannot respond in kind?

Who in the cabinet has killed?

Why are you not asking OP why her thread has such a ridiculous title?

Pshaw!

I agree fully with the OP.
Look at other countries how well they handled it.
For example in Europe Slovakia or Czech Rep.
yes these arr smaller countries but still.
They shut airports, schools, had a full lockdown, mandatory quarantine and mandatory masks.
Now evething is full back to normal, people sitting outside at restaurants, shopping..Trafic.
Here never was quarantine , airports were always open, anyone could fly here and wonder straightaway into London and infect people.
Nobody cared, no checks on airport..nothing.
I’m shielding too and I look very fit and healthy.
. My underlying condition is perfectly manageable on its own But if I get corona I will die .
So yes.
Government did not do the right thing at the right time.seems like actually suited them all this when he said: prepare you will lose loved one.
In Czech they fought so hard to save people- among them was a infected taxi driver, they managed to get him Remdesivir from US.
He survived thanks to the medicine, before he received it, he was in coma for long time.
Can you imagine government fighting to save a life of a random taxi driver and beg US for the medicine here?
Truly I can not.

We have the highest excess death rate in the world.

Who in the cabinet has killed? Why are you not asking OP why her thread has such a ridiculous title?

Precisely. The hyperbole becomes tiresome.

Because it's a very simple fact, and not hyperbole at all, that the actions of the government and he cabinet are life and death.

Their decisions did and do kill people. All the time.

Can you explain why you are ignoring the statements by Karl Sikora, the oncologist, about the impact of cancelled cancer treatments and missed diagnoses? What impact have the decisions made by NHS management had on excess deaths? The OP is a partisan, political rant bereft of objectivity or credible links. Talking of statistics, here's a sobering article from a pathologist who raises serious questions about how Covid deaths are verified. Or not verified at all.
www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-way-covid-deaths-are-being-counted-is-a-national-scandal

No no no runrun

You don't get to make an every day fact something scary just because the world situation has changed.

Every government the world over makes decisions that impact lives, all day, every day! NHS/similar funding makes the same decision, NICE/similar guidelines, WHO guidance... all do the same thing, every single day.

Nothing has changed about the way any government works. The situation has changed. It is utterly ludicrous to notice it now and to decry any individual cabinet or voters who voted years before COVID19 had been heard of!

That shit helps nobody! And I am beyond tired of listening to, reading, hearing people spout off such crap.

Stop scaring the shit out of yourselves; stop displacing that fear and narrowing your focus to one stupid man who laughed, another who went somewhere, another who continued his affair, a woman who went to her second home, etc etc etc.

THEY LITERALLY DO NOT MATTER!

They are distractions from what do matter. What can you do to keep you and yours safest.

Not safe! Safest!

How can you get back to as near normal as you can?

Focus on what you do have control over. It will lessen anxiety levels and make all of this crap far easier to bear!

Blame. It's such an easy thing to do. I saw an article in april from china saying that with over 30 strains of the virus, the worst had ones had been found in Washington, NY, Britain, Spain and Italy. I wonder how/why? This virus is odd - scientists still don't fully recognise it.

What's the point of having a government then?

Every government the world over makes decisions that impact lives, all day, every day!

This is exactly my point. The actions of the government, or the inaction, will be directly responsible for several thousand deaths. You are correct in that the actions of the government kill people every day just not usually at this magnitude.

Prominent people breaking the rules does matter as it influences the behaviour of others and in circumstances like these that's very important.

I don't have anxiety. I am angry at the government and those who make excuses for them. I am frustrated at the 'they're trying their hardest' brigade. They're not. Look at almost any other country in the world and you can see they're not.