Confederate Flag Flying

[PineapplePrincess]

Neighbour has started flying a Confederate flag today.

We are a mixed raced family, and I’m feeling a little unsettled by this. They are generally nice people, although we don’t tend to spend much time in their company. They perhaps don’t understand the impact flying the flag would have.

Don’t think I would say anything (altho’ DH May feel differently). But is it unreasonable to feel slightly offended?

donquixotedelamancha

Clearly not the same, as the poster said they see no problem with such "symbols".

It's the very deliberate and overt act of erecting a visual expression of ongoing racial hate, violence and murder. It's a willful hate act which an reasonable person would know will cause fear in minority populations. It will cause damage in the community. Not just a "thought crime."

The moment that 'causing fear' by political expression is a crime we don't live in a free society anymore.

Next is 'you can't say transwomen are not women' then 'you can't oppose abortion' or, if the other lot are in 'you must not promote homosexuality'.

The rights of all minorities are best protected when the majority can't impose what it wants.

Clearly not the same, as the poster said they see no problem with such "symbols".

I know but they compared to their experience, which is ok- there are direct parallels, it's not 'appropriating victimhood'.

donquixotedelamancha

How about an organised protest with hoods and a burning cross? What if it was fire safety assessed and there was council permit? Lawful free speech and protest or an illegal hate act of intimidation and terror?

Where is the line drawn?

And people wonder why there are riots in the usa.

And people wonder why there are riots in the usa.

There are riots because of a murder, not a flag.

Where is the line drawn?

Action, including incitement to it. Not thought or speech or banners.

The line is drawn carefully and reluctantly, everything past that is the slope to totalitarianism.

archive.li/weVYH

This is a lovely article from someone supporting fascism in the name of social justice. These people are everywhere these days and much more dangerous than casual ignorance.

@Winterlife

I don't get upset at these symbols. I'm half Ukrainian, and see people wearing Soviet symbols, and flying the flag of the USSR a lot. I loathe Bolshevism and its murderous ways (my family suffered massively under the Bolsheviks), which was more successful and lethal than the Nazis, but I just shrug off those who view these symbols positively, or don't understand them.

that's very nice for you. And you've made it clear that you are just as oppressed as african americans in the US who endured centuries of slavery. You've certainly made us all understand that waving the flag of the USSR is horrible. great.

But who cares whether you get upset or not about flags and symbols. Because you aren't everyone - amazing concept isn't it.

Many many people would be horribly upset at the history and message the confederate flag brings with it. And you not caring about USSR flags being waved is utterly irrelevant to that.

donquixotedelamancha

Free speech is vital to a free society but that can readily be achieved without tolerating the overt intimidation of minority groups which are subjected to gruesome physical violence.

The symbol representing the ongoing physical threat is precisely why we as a civil society do not tolerate the swastika and rightly so. A Confederate flag should meet the same condemnation and for the same reason.

If we tolerate the Confederate flag, we must tolerate the swastika and I'm sure most of us would agree that would be highly inappropriate.

PicsInRed

the problem is that we are having to over come the symbolism and romanticising of the confederate flag is many years of clothing, music, film, bikes, cars and all the memorabilia that goes with it.

That cannot be done overnight

@donquixotedelamancha

It's the very deliberate and overt act of erecting a visual expression of ongoing racial hate, violence and murder. It's a willful hate act which an reasonable person would know will cause fear in minority populations. It will cause damage in the community. Not just a "thought crime."

The moment that 'causing fear' by political expression is a crime we don't live in a free society anymore.

Next is 'you can't say transwomen are not women' then 'you can't oppose abortion' or, if the other lot are in 'you must not promote homosexuality'.

The rights of all minorities are best protected when the majority can't impose what it wants.

This a thousand times.

Best post in the thread. Stick up a black panther flag if you wish, but we must support their right to hold and express opinions we don’t all like.

FrippEnos

Perhaps we should pay as much public health attention to racism as we do to drink driving and seatbelt use. Ad campaigns and social pressure might do the trick to see racism out of fashion.

Stick up a black panther flag if you wish

I see you.

The symbol representing the ongoing physical threat is precisely why we as a civil society do not tolerate the swastika and rightly so.

I agree with you about how bad the flag is and that, in principle, it's as bad; but surely you recognise the difference in context in the UK?

There are good reasons we criminalise the swastika here but not the hammer and sickle or the battle flag. Those same reasons are why most people would not recognise the equivalence.

Context is king. Going to a fancy dress party in a stripy shirt and a berret will not raise the eyebrows that blackface would because of context.

I can go one worse than this and just to prove it could well be total ignorance. When I was a lot younger I had a bf who owned a biker/rockabilly clothing store. He would give me tons of stock that hadn't sold. One piece was a heavy metal cross necklace. To me, it was the medieval cross from the gate of our local village church. I liked it so much I wore it in a family photo shoot. Yep. You guessed it. It was the flipping Iron Cross. In my defence, I wouldn't have thought bf would have anything like that in his shop!
But how to broach it with them OP? I just can't figure out what you'd say!

There are good reasons we criminalise the swastika

Because it represents an ongoing threat of violence against Jewish people and is used as a symbolism of that violence by those who perpetrate that violence. In the same way as the Confederate flag is used. While it's not as common here, it is used, and not by history buffs.

Context is king. Going to a fancy dress party in a stripy shirt and a berret will not raise the eyebrows that blackface would because of context.

Context is, indeed, king.
When's the last time a racially motivated atrocity was committed upon a French person by an English person? The Confederate flag for very many people represents 400 years of enslavement, oppression, rape and murder.

Nationalism is rarely a good thing

Rubbish. Nothing wrong with pride in your nation.
Something wrong with extremists who hate people from other nations.

Only somebody with their head up their butt for years wouldn't know how offensive flying that flag is....the symbol adopted by right wing extremists.

If I had a flag flying in ignorance of that, and it's meaning was explained to me by my neighbour, I'd get it down instantly. Her response suggests she knows exactly what it means.

I can't believe nobody else in your street is worried about it - or are they?

"13th", by Netflix, for free on Youtube.
This is why US race relations are where they are today.
Please watch it.

I'm out.

Hm it's true it's one thing being ignorant but when you've been told there is no excuse.

A bit like when I stupidly wore a Lonsdale t shirt with a jacket over to teach a class of German teens. ... I had no idea that this was neo nazi wear because with the jacket over all that shows is NDSA...
The boldest kid had a word with me in the break and obviously I never wore it again.

When's the last time a racially motivated atrocity was committed upon a French person by an English person?

2018 was the last naval battle, as far as I know.

Because it represents an ongoing threat of violence against Jewish people and is used as a symbolism of that violence by those who perpetrate that violence. In the same way as the Confederate flag is used.

I don't agree that it's the equivalent of the swastika in the UK.

Is it still up OP?

Theres even been the strong de-communisation program in ukraine since 2015 banning soviet symbols, songs, statues and actual communist parties. Its just isnt a thing anymore in the mainstream.

@PicsInRed

There is nothing unlawful about flying the Confederate flag in the UK. There are similar stories to the OP's, previously reported in the press, where the police have been involved but ultimately powerless.

I agree that it should be illegal but, unfortunately, the UK wont get any help from the police here.

But who cares whether you get upset or not about flags and symbols. Because you aren't everyone - amazing concept isn't it.

Many many people would be horribly upset at the history and message the confederate flag brings with it. And you not caring about USSR flags being waved is utterly irrelevant to that.

The original point was, just as not everyone is upset by a Soviet flag even though it symbolizes atrocities, not everyone is upset by a Confederate flag, even though it symbolizes a heinous history.

Theres even been the strong de-communisation program in ukraine (sic) since 2015 banning soviet (sic) symbols, songs, statues and actual communist parties. Its just isnt a thing anymore in the mainstream.

The "de communization" was the result of a tiny number of Banderists using their symbols in Western Ukraine. To ban those symbols, communist symbols had to be "attacked" as well. But today, one can sing Soviet songs, one can fly a Soviet flag, one can even glorify the USSR in Ukraine. It is in the mainstream. Read newspapers. There is a nostalgia for the past, because only the stability of the Brezhnev years is presented.

Incidentally, the Communist Party of Ukraine is not banned. It still exists, and it still has members. But, it can't run in elections. That's the result of their support of the annexation of Crimea, which, under Ukrainian law, was a support of terrorism.

PicsinRed Stop appropriating this as your victimhood.
Start a new thread on the New Bolshiviks and begin your own movement rather than attempting to derail this one.

I didn't appropriate this thread, nor did I attempt to derail it. I specifically posted this wasn't the thread to provide examples. But if you respond to my post, I will riposte.

Oh, and PS, @user1473878824, my original point was not about former Soviets, or even young Eastern Europeans waxing nostalgic about the USSR. It is about Westerners who use these symbols as a "cool" factor. It's common, and they do so because they are ignorant about the history behind those symbols. Very similar to the Confederate flag.

Sorry, which of my posts are you replying to?