Confederate Flag Flying

[PineapplePrincess]

Neighbour has started flying a Confederate flag today.

We are a mixed raced family, and I’m feeling a little unsettled by this. They are generally nice people, although we don’t tend to spend much time in their company. They perhaps don’t understand the impact flying the flag would have.

Don’t think I would say anything (altho’ DH May feel differently). But is it unreasonable to feel slightly offended?

@JohnRokesmith but if it was wholly about slavery it would have been over quickly. The reason why it turn into such a drawn out big thing was because Virginia would have allied with the northern states rather than joining the confederates. Saying it’s wholly about slavery or even that the move to abolish slavery in the northern states was wholly about slavery is an over simplification. It was about the northern states wanting to impose their ban on the southern states and the economic consequences of such. While it’s undoubtably that there were some people that felt strongly one way or the other on the issue of slavery the predominant interests were political and economical. Like most wars it was about money and power.

Virginia contained 500,000 slaves in 1860; here’s a map of the slave population:

www.loc.gov/item/2010586922/

Note how the southern and western counties were staunchly Confederate, whilst the west, with few slaves, declared for the Union.

The American Civil War was about the Defense of slavery; it’s incontestable, and pretty much the universal opinion of all respected historians.

Guys....shall we leave the competition on who is best at US history and discuss the matter at hand?

It’s totes relevant, because it speaks to what the flag means. There’s a big difference, for instance, between the flag of St George and the Nazi swastika flag; the former is very popular with racists, but has a long and generally harmless history, whilst the latter was specifically adopted for a campaign of conquest and genocide. The flag being flown by the OP’s neighbour is a lot closer to the latter than the former.

(Incidentally, the flag flown by the OP’s neighbour is presumably the battle flag of the army of Virginia, rather than the actual Confederate flag, which was this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#/media/File:Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_(1863–1865).svg - it was mostly white to represent white supremacy, and was really unpopular with the Confederate armies, because, from a distance, it made them look like they were surrendering.)

YANBU to feel offended.
It's very weird to fly that flag if they are not Southern American. I wonder if they even know the significance, though?

Yes that is 'totes' relevant you aRe right but let's not lose sight of op . Who could well be stuck next door to a right pair...by the sounds of it..

OK read your update.
She may not have known, she knows now.
So she is being VU for continuing to fly that flag.

I don't get upset at these symbols. I'm half Ukrainian, and see people wearing Soviet symbols, and flying the flag of the USSR a lot. I loathe Bolshevism and its murderous ways (my family suffered massively under the Bolsheviks), which was more successful and lethal than the Nazis, but I just shrug off those who view these symbols positively, or don't understand them.

[quote CovidicusRex]@JohnRokesmith but if it was wholly about slavery it would have been over quickly. The reason why it turn into such a drawn out big thing was because Virginia would have allied with the northern states rather than joining the confederates. Saying it’s wholly about slavery or even that the move to abolish slavery in the northern states was wholly about slavery is an over simplification. It was about the northern states wanting to impose their ban on the southern states and the economic consequences of such. While it’s undoubtably that there were some people that felt strongly one way or the other on the issue of slavery the predominant interests were political and economical. Like most wars it was about money and power.[/quote]
Yeah, the money and power that came from black people being property.

I've known what that flag meant since watching Roots decades ago, as a child.

I think the neighbour is a really stupid hipster who doesn't want to admit she's wrong.

@lordfrontpaw
You and i must be neighbours......

Are people making the assumption that flying a Confederate flag equates to support for slavery (outlawed there in 1865)?

Presumably they will also be going after people that possess the flags of India (7.9 million), China (3.8 m), Pakistan (3.1 m), Nigeria (1.3 m), Indonesia (1.2 m), and DRC (1 m), all of which maintain various forms of slavery. I think Saudi still has something that looks very much like slavery too.

news.un.org/en/story/2019/09/1045972

www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/highlights/

I'd also be fairly sure a lot of MN users aren't too bothered where their reasonably priced clothes etc. come from. A sense of proportion is called for.

[quote Buster72]@lordfrontpaw
You and i must be neighbours......[/quote]
Central London?

I got the reply “I’m sorry you see it that way”.

So she knows what she was doing and did it on purpose.

Now you make a complaint to the police.

I absolutely would do that. Fuck her.

@Winterlife

I don't get upset at these symbols. I'm half Ukrainian, and see people wearing Soviet symbols, and flying the flag of the USSR a lot. I loathe Bolshevism and its murderous ways (my family suffered massively under the Bolsheviks), which was more successful and lethal than the Nazis, but I just shrug off those who view these symbols positively, or don't understand them.

Is Bolshevism an ongoing system of oppression putting you and your family at mortal risk? No?

Then it's not the same.

I have to admit I didn’t know about the flag thing until fairly recently. Having only seen it on dukes of hazard!!

However now I do know, it does make me wince. I don’t think you did a wrong thing talking to her, I think given what is happening in America it is awful timing and perhaps they should rethink their flag choice.

Re. historical understanding of the American Civil War, there's a very plausible argument that the "it was about state's rights" interpretation is itself a piece of after-the-fact historical revisionism designed to gloss over how important the defence of racial supremacy and slave ownership in the southern states was as a motive for the Confederate side. See for instance
www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/states-rights/544541/

OP, YANBU, and I'm so sorry your neighbour has been frosty about it. (I grew up in the 70s when my best friend was very big into the Dukes of Hazard - the confederate flag was something that would pop up, in all ignorance - but she'd have been mortified if the significance of it had been explained to it. Being mortified is the normal response, a defensive one, not so much.)

They know what it stands for. It’s also being used now as a stance by Jose with racist views I shall not be told be government how to live my life I’m off grid nonsense (not suggesting everyone living off grid is racist) It might not be directed at you but it’s a show of their political alliances. Lots of people don’t see themselves as having racist views because they have black/brown friends

Do you ever fly a flag of a country you are not from, why would you do this unless showing support

There has been far too much in the news about the confederate flag in recent years for them to claim complete innocence

Hopefully they shall take it down

The racial aspects were something that grew up later.

Nonsense. The 'racial aspects' (nice minimising turn of phrase) were always there ... the difference is that casual (or worse) racism used to shamefully be the norm.

I'd also be fairly sure a lot of MN users aren't too bothered where their reasonably priced clothes etc. come from. A sense of proportion is called for.

Two (or many) wrongs never make a right.

Flying a racist flag is completely unnecessary, and of no economic benefit to anyone. There is no reasonable defence for it.

@Shinjirarenai

Are people making the assumption that flying a Confederate flag equates to support for slavery (outlawed there in 1865)?

Presumably they will also be going after people that possess the flags of India (7.9 million), China (3.8 m), Pakistan (3.1 m), Nigeria (1.3 m), Indonesia (1.2 m), and DRC (1 m), all of which maintain various forms of slavery. I think Saudi still has something that looks very much like slavery too.

news.un.org/en/story/2019/09/1045972

www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/highlights/

I'd also be fairly sure a lot of MN users aren't too bothered where their reasonably priced clothes etc. come from. A sense of proportion is called for.

Do any of those flags represent an army who went to war over their right to keep slaves and have been used by white supremacists ever since?

How many people in the UK actually know what a confederate flag is?

I can't believe there are people on this thread trotting out the old "the American Civil War wasn't about slavery; it was about states' rights." Bullshit and more bullshit. It was about states rights in that it was about the rights of states to maintain the enslavement of black people.

I was born in, grew up in, and still live in the US Deep South. The Confederate flag is anathema here in that anyone who flies it is basically shouting to the world "I am a racist." Thankfully, you see it less and less. I haven't seen one flying in years. I'm sure that some people still do, but you certainly would not see it flying from a house in a neighborhood.

How many people in the UK actually know what a confederate flag is?

No idea. But I would assume that someone who chooses to display it would have maybe done a quick google. It's not that hard to find out.

@Puppybum...judging by this thread quite a lot.

Puppybum

Very few people know the difference between the Confederate flag and the confederate battle flag.

IMO very few people understand what the flag/s actually stand for.