Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

Why do people choose to fight the easy target? Instead of reducing family planning choices, why not campaign for greater inclusivity? I shall never understand how someone, anyone, can believe their personal circumstances are so important as to impinge on absolutely everyone.

This.

I can't believe that someone is suing the NHS at a time like this. It just takes time and resources away from the senior managers who should be focusing on how to deliver patient care. Even if the NHS were insured against this it puts up premiums and takes up valuable time. Sick of people suing the NHS about their personal crusades rather than devoting time and energy to supporting those who need it.

And then theres surrogates. Who takes care of a baby that the bio parents dont want as its sick , and then the surrogate wont get paid and doubtful someone who could afford to support themselves would be a surrogate anyway so isnt that just forcing a desperate woman to carry a baby she has no biological link to and wont have any money to look after when the parents pull out.... what then..

It's a difficult decision but each mother and couple needs to carefully consider how they would cope with caring for a disabled child and whether they have the resources to do so. I have worked with disabled children for over 10 years. Each child I've met has been amazing and unique and each one has met a set of challenges. As others have said previously Downs is a spectrum so the child could have a great quality of life, or face real difficulties if the parents struggle to cope. Each case is unique and I'm sure the parent(s) make what they believe is the best choice for their family.

I understand that sometimes a disability isn't diagnosed until after 24 weeks and therefore people have to make decisions later in pregnancy. But it still happens that some conditions aren't diagnosed until after birth. And so I struggle to reconcile finding out at 40w - termination of full term baby. Finding out after the birth process - accept your fate.

I think if a foetus is of a gestation that it can survive outside a woman's body, the decision is hugely complex.

Abortion isn’t something to be taken lightly - you are ending life and there should be more of a stigma instead of “it’s my body, my right”

More of a stigma = more unsafe abortions.

I’m confused as to why you want more stigma now you’ve safely accessed the abortion you were perfectly at liberty to choose.

Walkingchuckydoll so sorry for your loss. .

Absolutely right. Sometimes it is the loving thing to do to let your pregnancy end.

If you don’t think it’s killing them, well removing limbs in the womb so it doesn’t come out alive is killing it.
That's not how late term abortions happen.

I looked at the stats when this first came into the news and the numbers of late stage abortions are tiny, and I'm sure behind every one lies a world of pain for the woman that had to make that choice.

I think she's completely wrong to use her own life as an argument to restrict choice for other women.

@WotnoPasta
145 abortions due to grounds of the womens health under grounds A and B.
A - the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman greater than if the pregnancy were terminated: Abortion Act 1967 as amended, Section 1(1)(c).

B - the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman: Section 1(1)(b).
It doesn't say what percentage we're late abortions though.

Totally agree that there shouldn't be any exceptions to abortion laws due to disability.

Access to abortion should be unrestricted and on-demand, as early as possible and as late as necessary.

Wheninrometoday this is nothing to do with medical negligence. This is a philosophical difference. So don't conflate the two.

I was talking about crusades. Not medical mistakes.

We are keeping premature babies alive at the same development stage as killing them

And have u seen the outcomes for babies born at 23/24 weeks?

There was a documentary on tv a gee years ago following the paths of 2 families.

It showed a mum who made the decision to resuscitate her 23 weeker and the now adult women will never live independently she can't do anything for herself.

There are way worse conditions aside from Down's syndrome . I have a son with special needs and I'm still pro choice . Had I known what lay ahead I would have had a termination . Life is hard and will be much much harder when he is an adult . I love the absolute bones of him but I wouldn't have known how amazing he is aside from the disability so it's irrelevant .
I will always be pro choice !!

Thanks @SoloMummy

I dont agree with late term abortion in any case unless the child is going to suffer then die soon after birth anyway. Downs is no reason to kill a child. Its essentially, "I don't want that one, I want a better one" and its gross. You perfectly healthy child could be injured during birth and become brain damaged for life.

Do you have a disabled child? Do you know the reality of caring for a disabled child in this country? Some people with Downs have heart defects, they may have increased risks of early onset dementia, they may be severely learning disabled, non- verbal, doubly incontinent and display extremely challenging behaviour. Would you like to take care of a six foot equivalent of a toddler for the rest of your life? Have you adopted a child with Downs? Would you adopt a child like the one i described?
Some people have this image of people with Downs as being "very friendly and just a bit slow." That's a very rosy view of the condition.

My mother considered having an abortion because of the high risk of Downs. She's not a bad person who "wanted the better non-disabled" child over the special needs one. She was an exhausted parent already dealing with three autistic children. My point is, you don't know people's circumstances. It's not as simple as "i don't want a downs child." She wouldn't have loved the child any less if it did have Downs, she rightly thought that dealing with that on top of autism was impossible.
So you can fuck off with your ignorant "i don't want that one, i want a better one" rhetoric.

I can't be comfortable with the idea of terminating a pregnancy of a baby that would be viable outside of the womb.

I fully understand and support the right to terminate a pregnancy if the suspected level of disability is more than the parents could cope with it the child's quality of life would be too low to be meaningful. However this is usually known much earlier.

Its essentially euthenasia if you have a late pregnancy termination as that child would likely have eurvived. Ironically we don't allow consenting adults to be "put to sleep" when they are suffering and making an informed decision so I can't square with taking the right to life from a non consenting child.

(& I say this as someone in favour of euthenasia & abortion in certain circumstances).

SleepStandingUp
Thank you for the explanation.

RyanStarted
Yes I totally understand what you are saying someone (I am sorry I forget their username) explained why they had a late abortion. Also totally understandable and any changes in legislation absolutely needs to take circumstances beyond the mother’s control into account.

Caring for a child with a disability is one thing. Parents are young and it is natural for children to need us. Kids are lovely, and small so easy to lift, change, transport. When that "child" is 20 and weighs 14 stone it is quite another matter.

Caring for an adult with severe disabilities is a life sentence. Your marriage is unlikely to survive. You will never live alone, go on holiday, have friends round - not in the way that you used to. You will very likely lose your career, your freedom, your money. Any other children you have will be impacted and you will be caring until you are too old and in too much pain to do it yourself any longer - or until you die. And then the adult goes into care or the sibling gives up her life to continue the caring. Because once they are born we love them completely and anyway, what choice does anyone have then?

We cannot force women to do this. That choice HAS to be available.

However this is usually known much earlier.
Define earlier. Major heart defects are often not picked up until the 20 week scan, alongside life limiting illnesses. 24 weeks is viability, tests take time, counselling takes time, decision making takes time.

@wheninrometoday you sound very pro-choice. Not.

Either you're lying about that if you want more stigma for people who've had abortions or you're v confused.

Again the energy is going on the wrong place. Put energies into supporting young women about not getting into shit relationships. Help them to get support for decent contraception. Not into removing the rights of women to not be forced into giving birth.

Its essentially, "I don't want that one, I want a better one"

Its not though, is it.

There are many factors, including what's best for the potential child, existing children, and family as a whole, both physically and mentally.

If your perfectly healthy child is injured that is a whole different circumstance, you wouldn't choose that for anyone, thankfully abortion is a legal and valid choice.

@User273648 - thank you for raising this as I have struggled with my views on abortion law and feminism and rights of marginalised groups for a long time and have finally settled.

YABU for calling this woman a 'girl' - I think this belies a view of people with disabilities (particularly learning disabled) as lacking capacity.

YABU for presenting a binary choice which is massively imbalanced: 'same as now' or 'different from now' lumps together (at least) 2 very different views in the 'different from now' camp - those who agree with scrapping the disability exception for abortions over 24 weeks (essentially equalising at 24 weeks) and those who agree with scrapping the 24 week limit and allowing abortion up to birth.

I have been pregnant 3 times and have 2 children. I had a miscarriage. I have always believed I support a woman's right to choose abortion while thinking I could not have one myself. I have felt squeamish about what abortion really means. Even more so having seen the little sac with my future baby in it and letting it go.

For late term abortion I can't even imagine the procedure or the decision-making and emotional impact.

But looking at this now, I think it is abhorrent to allow an exception to a time limit that is based on disability (particularly ones that have such a broad spectrum) and given the constant leaps in care for premature babies, the 24 week limit is a practical nonsense.

On balance, I think we should scrap time limits and allow pregnant women to make this decision, with medical and emotional advice and support. Individual autonomy and 'life' in the legal sense has to begin from birth.