Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

The issue here isn't women's autonomy. It's the fact that at present only babies with disabilities can be terminated until term. I am pro-choice, but this is surely discrimination. Otherwise why can't any baby be terminated at 40 weeks if the woman decides she doesn't want to go through with it? The limit for ALL babies should be 24 weeks.

The limit for ALL babies should be 24 weeks

I disagree. The limit for all abortions should be as late as necessary.

As a society we are now somewhat obsessed with preserving life no matter what. As noble as it sounds... It's not always the right thing to do...

MrSheenandMe agree with every word. It's not the pro-lifers that would be helping an ageing parent look after their severely disabled adult son or daughter in the middle of the night. Parents do this lovingly of course they do. But they shouldn't be forced into this situation.

After Tiller is a documentary about the reality of late term abortions and the health care workers who provide them. Anyone who thinks it's easy or is something someone does because they changed their mind or on a whim should watch it. No one sets out to get one, planned pregnancy or unplanned. It is absolute that it is the woman's right and NO ONE gets to decide or enforce their views on her. Having grown up, been pregnant and given birth in a country where I knew I was second to the pregnancy, I wouldn't wish it on anyone and anybody who thinks they have the right to do so needs to catch themselves on.

The 24 week limit doesn't allow much time for consultation and decision making, especially if it's booked a little late. The 'up to birth' bit sounds so horrendous - I think I'd want to know how many really late terminations (say 38 weeks +) actually took place in the last 13 months and what conditions they were for. If the disability is incompatible with life outside the womband the baby, once born, is certain to die, that's one thing. I woukd be surprised if there were many or any late terminations for cleft palate or club foot, though, as both conditions are eminently treatable. A family member was born with club feet in the days before scans and they were corrected. He was never a great runner but he learned to dance brilliantly as part of his therapy.

There is such a wide spectrum of seriousness here that any blanket change to the law seems unwise.

It would help if people actually read what she’s asking for rather than jumping to the conclusion that she’s asking to ban all abortions 🙄 She just wants the abortion limits to be the same (24 weeks in the UK) regardless of whether or not there is a disability.

At the moment there appears be to be a recognition that the foetus has a right to life from 24 weeks except if it has a disability. That seems to be a very clear case of discriminating against those with disabilities - they are not entitled to the same right to life that non-disabled foetuses are. Downs syndrome can be detected well before 24 weeks.

And fwiw There were two separate cases Of babies born at 21 + 5 weeks - both in Canada Iirc. They are healthy and living independent lives. There was a documentary a few years ago when the boy started university.
There was another case more recently of a girl born at 21 weeks in Texas. She is also healthy.
Obviously not all babies survive at this age but it shows that age of viability is not a clear cut issue.

@Griefmonster @MarieQueenofScots @MeanMrMustardSeed

I apologise if I've offended anyone by using the word 'girl'. It was unintentional and I think considering how controversial and difficult this subject matter is, I knew that no matter how I phrased it, I would get it wrong somewhere. I didn't mean to. It's probably a reflection on my cousin being a child rather than anything to do with the article - I didn't realise her age when I posted. Apologies for any offence caused.

Typo, I meant to type 12 months. 13 is random!

The issue here isn't women's autonomy. It's the fact that at present only babies with disabilities can be terminated until term. I am pro-choice, but this is surely discrimination. Otherwise why can't any baby be terminated at 40 weeks if the woman decides she doesn't want to go through with it? The limit for ALL babies should be 24 weeks.

This is the exact reason that abortions should be accessible to term for all women rather than reduce the term for those making hugely difficult decisions based on medical information that they may not fully have at 24 weeks.

Babies are viable from 23 weeks.

In fact I'm sure I read somewhere that due to a mix up with dates that the mum didnt correct because she couldbt barebthe thought they wouldnt resuscitate her baby if they knew, a 22 weeker survived ( not 100 percent on that)

But especially the 23 and 24 weekers they are technically viable but will spend months in a NICU and very very rarely do they leave with no measurable affects from their prematurity. Just because we can resuscitate them doesnt mean that they will have any quality of life at all, and that shouldnt be something used to change the limits on abortions

All abortion is abhorrent and should be banned IMO.

Oh absolutely. I’m dying to go back to the good old days where women bled to death, slowly and painfully, and died of sepsis and infection from backyard abortions. Those were such interesting times!

I also personally giggle with glee every time I see an unwanted and neglected child. And a mother who can’t feed or provide for her child makes me practically giddy. And children who have been given up for adoption never ever suffer any sort of identity crisis or attachment disorder.

My personal favourite is forcing rape victims and children to carry and birth a baby who was a product of rape or incest. Neither mother or baby will have lifelong trauma at all!

Fucking fuckwit. “Pro life” my fat ass.

Sorry I meant to tag @EtonMessy

Otherwise why can't any baby be terminated at 40 weeks if the woman decides she doesn't want to go through with it?
Because tests and diagnosis can take you past the 24 week mark easily if the defects are not picked up until the 20 week scan.

I was 16 weeks when I had a TFMR but I could very easily see how things could drag on past 24 weeks. People who have been through the process obviously have a clearer understanding of how much time these things take. I had to travel 2 hours to a fetal medicine unit every time I had a test or answers or assessment. Their mistakes almost led to a month long delay in diagnosis. Advice to wait until 20 weeks when the heart and organs can be pictured more clearly is almost always advised in less severe cases. The issues with a blanket date are pretty obvious when you've been on that side of things.

100 % agree with Pixiefringe

Can’t we at least agree that in the case of very late terminations, the term “forced birth” is utterly nonsensical and deliberately misleading?

I was going to explain why, but I don’t want to upset anyone, given some of the heart-breaking experiences posted here.

I just want to add that late terminations can be traumatic for the doctors and theatre technicians too. I have never seen anyone on these threads acknowledge that.

It's not the pro-lifers that would be helping an ageing parent look after their severely disabled adult son or daughter in the middle of the night.

Right - because you couldn’t possibly be pro-life and have personal experience of raising a disabled child. 🙄 You know that some people are pro-life for the very reason that they have experience of raising a child with a condition that others use as a reason to have an abortion, right? Jeez.

Cattenberg late term abortions are not performed surgically in the UK.

Also, just to add in the point re. TFMR post 24 weeks - up until 2 years ago we in the Rep of Ireland had no access to any testing on the island (no 12 week combined risk). Often life limiting syndromes were first identified after the anatomy scan at 24 weeks. Parents seeking to end the pregnancy only made contact after that point with U.K. hospitals. Up until recently, the U.K. numbers were reflecting Irish mothers too. As abortion is now legal, the U.K. post 24 week numbers will drop.

All abortion should be legal up until birth. It should be the woman's choice.

Would I abort a healthy baby - no, not at any stage. But I support other women to have the right to do as they want with their own bodies.

If a child is disabled you should absolutely have the right to abort at any stage. My child is profoundly disabled. It's not always as simple as they tell you the child's disabled and you choose to keep or terminate. With my child every scan we were told a different potential outcome. We never really knew if there was somthing wrong, how severe or nothing at all wrong. If I had been told at 39 weeks that he would be they way he his - I would have aborted. That should be my right and every woman's right.

The reality for many of rasing and disabled child is not the same as the "wouldn't change them for the world, such a little fighter, brought so much joy to my life" narrative we are shown on TV. For many it's lonely, hard, soul destroying and tears apart your life. I and many parents suffer depression, financial hardship and breakdown of relationship with the father. We should have the right to chose a different path rather than be forced into this existence. And no, its not that easy to just give the child up. As I've been told, he's my child and my responsibility.

Down syndrome is difficult because it has such a big range. Some children are only mildly effected and can lead full lives, go to mainstream school and required very little additional support. Some have extremely high level needs. I've only met 2 children with greater needs than my son (and I spend alot of time with disabled children) and one of them had downs syndrome.

why would there be unsafe abortions when it’s LEGAL

Because when you increase the STIGMA you increase the likelihood of women feeling unable to access abortion through the legal route.

Do we want to head back to the days of back street abortions?

Or should we do the opposite, completely de-stigmatise abortion leaving it nothing more than the valid, legal procedure it is.

I’m talking about the injection. Two doctors have to be present.

My personal favourite is forcing rape victims and children to carry and birth a baby who was a product of rape or incest. Neither mother or baby will have lifelong trauma at all!

I'm sure I read that one of the grooming gang victims had the father of the baby grabbed access, or at very least applied to he able to have access to the child . ( happy to be corrected on this )

We see on MN all the time about the state of the parenting and the abuse both the mum and child ( see the sunscreen thread ffs) receive yet the exs are still granted access.