Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

The cut off also needs looking at. Growing evidence shows unborn babies can feel pain at 20 weeks and possibly earlier. 24 weeks is too late. If the issue is around the 20 week scan, then that's what needs to be changed. Surely it's possible to have that earlier with advances in technology.

@Boomclaps I'm so sorry for your loss, and fwiw (though obviously none of my beeswax) I would do the same. Agree totally regarding campaigning for better funding for respite care, employment opportunities etc. IMO women should be able to terminate any pregnancy for any reason, at any time.
My BIL has Downs. He is low functioning. My DH loves him very much but when we had children (awaiting imminent arrival of 2nd), we were in total agreement about doing all available tests and what we'd do if tests came back positive for Downs. It may sound harsh, but pretending that having a disabled child is all smiles and hugs, sunshine and special rainbows serves no one. Having to care for someone (esp an adult) with such complex needs can be a life-ruiner for many parents (usually the mother especially). There are few resources for severely learning-disabled adults. BIL is a 32 year old man - he doesn't want to do kids stuff! But also he can't really talk, can't travel on his own, or get a job or live alone. His health is reasonable and he could live another 30 years. I love him too and am glad he has a nice life. But his parents, already in their 70s, won't be able to care for him forever. What then? It's the elephant in the room.
It pains me greatly that I know, for my own sake and for the sake of my children, at some point I'm going to have to be a selfish bitch and say no, he cannot come to live with us. My MIL is amazing, and I know it would break her heart to read this. But it's just how I feel.

Im so fucking angry; how on earth can you abort a baby because it has club foot?
My beautiful seven year old granddaughter was born wih talipes ( club feet) and will need minimal ongoing treatment but she is absolutely ‘normal’ in every other way!
To think she could have been killed because her feet turned in just makes my blood run cold.
Eugenics well and truly in action!

You’re right@justhereforthetips it is very upsetting. I’ve also heard from a midwife about a mother being offered a “selective” abortion For a twin as only one of the babies had a disability.
I have a child with Downs and I’m so glad I never had the option for an abortion. He/she is a true joy and I understand how Heidi feels as I have felt the law is discriminatory too there are a lot of other disabilities that are far worse than Downs Syndrome and aren’t picked up during pregnancy and ‘accidents’ happen at birth which end up with some babies having severe disabilities but you wouldn’t then put that person “down” would you.
I do agree however everyone has a choice and that should remain so.

@notalwaysalondoner
They could just give their baby up for adoption. That is such an ignorant thing to say. I have a female dog and I will be getting her spayed because I could not bear it if she were to bring puppies into the world only to be abused. I cannot imagine how hard that would be for parents.

I have a question on the validity of tests in this country for abnormalities at 12 weeks. Dd is 11. When I was checked abroad at about 12 weeks, I was told although not 100% accurate didn’t appear to have downs. I had far more scans than are given here btw. This was done by neck measurement. Is this not the case in the U.K.? The gynae checked again maybe 3 weeks later. I was there a lot. And he confirmed 3 times it was a girl.

@1forsorrow thats so sad, for your aunt and that girl (and baby

Lots of us born to Single Women, disabled, teenage Mothers, born out of rape etc etc, do, so were would it end? the pp only said shes entitled to an opinion as opposed to having to "wind her fucking neck in" so if the law permitted late term abortions for single women, disabled women, teenage mothers, victims of rape etc you'd all be entitled to an opinion on that

I am totally in favour of a woman's right to choose. But I can see the point being made and there is an easy solution. We currently don't have a right to choose. We have an entitlement based on someone else's medical opinion that we fit within certain categories. So yes, change the law. Make it a true right to choose without having to have any reason other than not wishing to give birth. Nobody should need to explain themselves for wanting an abortion. They aren't fun and nobody chooses this because they fancy it.

I think women should be entitled to choose to terminate their pregnancy if they are told they baby will be disabled. It's a valid reason. Of course, women can terminate an unwanted pregnancy for any reason, but if the pregnancy was planned and wanted and then the mother discovers that the baby has a disability, she will be finding that out when she's much further along in her pregnancy and so naturally she will need extra time for that diagnosis to be made and for her to decide whether she wants to continue with the pregnancy or not.

However, I have to admit I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of a Downs syndrome pregnancy being terminated shortly before the due date. We're talking about viable babies who would almost certainly live if delivered at that point. If you could induce labour or have a planned C section and the most likely result would be a living baby with the potential to live a long and fulfilling life despite their disability, I don't think you should be able to kill that baby before it is born instead.

I think the cut off point for abortion in case of disabilities should be later than it is where there is no disability, but I think it should probably not be allowed right up until full term.

Mummyoflittledragon its a combined risk based on the nuchal fold, bloods and age but yes mistakes happen.
my friend was told her daughter was v high risk for t13, and offered an abortion based on that combined risk. she refused and her daughter is ordinary and healthy

Those 289 late term terminations need breaking down further.

I agree, a week by week breakdown including reasons for termination after 24 weeks, if only to demonstrate how few actually occur at anything approaching term and only then if the baby is expected to die after suffering for a matter of hours or days or the mother's life is at risk. I recall reading a report which gave figures for terminations after 35 weeks, the numbers were single digit but I can't remember where I found it. Late term abortion is very rare and the circumstances are usually tragic.

This is a uniquely individual decision to make. I had 3 babies. With each before testing we had decided we would terminate if major disability e.g. downs. Fortunately we never had to make the decision in practice. Would we have followed through? Probably but until it's you I don't think you can really say.

I think the cut off point for abortion in case of disabilities should be later than it is where there is no disability, but I think it should probably not be allowed right up until full term. i agree. i think this is the middle ground between what i feel and whqt i think i should feel

@Redwinestillfibe the cut off for life limiting disabilities is birth.

Until you are born you are not recognised under the various laws in the UK as a person.

In some ways I realised I was lucky as an older mother as I got all my tests and scans on time. I personally know younger women who didn't including those who have had previous babies with life limiting conditions and babies died soon after birth. The genetic conditions they had were rare.

Those bringing the case are doing so from a very one sided view of the debate and I would think to an extent are being used by other forces because of their emotional impact, and there is some aspect of sentimentality behind it. Cute two year old, brave disabled woman.

The fact stands that women should not be forced to carry and birth a child against their will, that way madness lies. And the outcomes for every disabled child carried to birth are by no means lovely, rosy ones.

Down syndrome is higher risk in older mothers though isnt it?

So who takes care of adult children who cant live independently when the parents are too frail or dead?

Do you not think that's something that might factor into the decision?

She has a point that if people are able to abort on grounds of disability up to birth, that is discriminatory and you should be able to access abortion even if the baby has no disability.

Except that would make zero difference to the world because people don't seek abortion that late. I'd be in favour of the change myself, for the one or two cases a year when a woman hasn't known she is pregnant until 24 weeks, but sadly most people conflate fetal viability with when abortion should be banned (reduced from 28 to 24 weeks some years ago).

Practically all late abortions will be for a life-limiting condition. Most people don't know how limited or painful a life can be so aren't making decisions with all the info - they get told 'can survive'. Regretting not having had an abortion because your child is in such distress must surely be the worst outcome which we all want to avoid?

Talipes and cleft lip can be outward markers of much more severe issues - like cleft palette going back into the throat meaning inability to separate food from air. Abortions get recorded in detsil so it just means it's on record the fetus had say a cleft lip though the reason would be a more severe condition.

If this woman's campaign succeeds I think it will backfire - currently parents may decide they can deal with a kid with Downs, knowing that if it turns out to have a severe heart condition later in pregnancy, they can still have an abortion. If that becomes not an option, parents are much more likely to decide they won't risk the higher risk of such severe conditions and decide to abort if their fetus has Downs.

I would bet no-one is explaining that to this campaigner.

I do know someone who had a later abortion due to cleft palette. It was picked up at 20 weeks (I think it was more like 21). The babies skull also wasn’t formed properly. It took several weeks of further tests, consultation meetings and finding a doctor and place to do the surgery. The dates can’t be too fixed.

@Ponoka7
Approximately 90% of all known Down syndrome pregnancies are aborted. 30% of births of Down syndrome babies are not known to be Downs syndrome before birth.
Now given that less than 20% of Down syndrome babies have what is considered to be serious heart problems your assertion that this is what makes up the 289 does not really "add" up.

There are other conditions where quality of life would be as you described. This is categorically not the case for children with Downs syndrome.

She's a woman, not a girl. You call her a girl several times in your OP, and that I find unreasonable.

I’m of the opinion that all lives should be equal and therefore the cut off should be the same for all, unless the mother’s life is at risk.

And what if the baby has a condition that's incompatible with life? Or it will live a short time but in excruciating pain? It's not just about whether the mother's life is in danger. It's easy to see all lives are equal, but does that extend to babies that are born with only half a brain? Do you have any idea of the suffering that would be caused by forcing women to carry those babies to term?

I consider myself to be pro choice (at least I thought I did), but honestly aborting at 39/40 weeks is shocking. Where does it stop? Euthanising a new born baby with disabilities?

I'll ask you the same thing, and if the baby has a condition that's incompatible with life? You really think it's better the baby be born?

As an autistic person i see no need for the law to be changed. Does it trouble me that people will abort because they don't want a disabled child? Yeah, of course it does.
But I'm still pro-choice all the way. And i look at it like this, i wouldn't want people to be forced to have a disabled child. Not least for the child's sake. And before someone says, well they could give it up for adoption. Yeah, how often does that work out? There aren't exactly people lining up to adopt healthy NT children, let alone disabled children.

Mummyoflittledragon its a combined risk based on the nuchal fold, bloods and age but yes mistakes happen.
Mistakes happen because its not a diagnostic test, just a risk generating test which you will be informed of if you have a high risk result. You then go on to have a diagnostic test such as CVS or amniocentesis.

I had red flags at my 12 week scan, a high risk result by 13 weeks. A CVS at 14 weeks with a week wait for results that Birmingham FMU messed up, so it had to be run again, that takes us to 16 weeks. At 16 weeks I had a fetal echo, the earliest this can be performed reliably that showed the baby would have required a heart transplant. People saying people should know and make a decision by 12 weeks are talking about of their arsehole.

vdbfamily I'd like to see some evidence that those abortions were just for cleft lip and palate and that those foetuses were otherwise fine - because that condition can be a marker for much more severe abnormalities. It's far more likely that additional scans showed a major problem that couldn't have been spotted earlier.

As for the 'well, they should just get tested earlier' brigade - can you get over yourselves? We live with what the NHS can offer. Most women will not have the financial resources to go for private testing.

A friend of mine had to terminate a much wanted second baby at 28 weeks due to a genetic condition incompatible with life - that was how long it took before the tests came back positive. Some of you would want her baby to have gone through pain and suffering just to appease your pro life beliefs.

If this woman's campaign succeeds

There's a bit of a spate hitting courts at the moment based on highly one sided emotional appeals from personal circumstances that take no account of years of law and precedent and no equal consideration of the rights of others involved and impacted in the situation.

None of them so far have done well in court at all. This kind of thing is heartrending but it doesn't stand up well to law.

I dont agree with late term abortion in any case unless the child is going to suffer then die soon after birth anyway.
Downs is no reason to kill a child. Its essentially, "I don't want that one, I want a better one" and its gross. You perfectly healthy child could be injured during birth and become brain damaged for life.
I also think the 24weeks is too old and it should be reduced.

I had a termination of a very much wanted and waited for ivf pregnancy at 18 weeks. She absolutely would have survived the birth no problem but I wouldn't have been able to hold or touch her. A boy with a similar set of problems was operated on 51 times in his first year. My girl would have been in pain all her life, wouldn't have walked, wouldn't have had the capacity to understand why she was suffering. She probably would have died by the age of 2, (although the mentioned boy lived bed bound till 7) spending most of her life in agony. How on earth can any pro lifer claim to know better than a mother what is best for the child? Besides, my pro lifer friends all seem to have healthy babies, it is so much different when you have to decide yourself what is best for your baby. I never believed I would abort any child, now I know different. I ended her life out of love, not because she wasn't wanted, but to save her much suffering.