Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

It is so difficult to have one law which applies to all in such cases, each individual case should be judged on it’s own merits, by a specialist team of experts in a variety of different fields.Its such a complex and emotive issue, but I do believe that ultimately the woman’s wishes have to be given priority.

As another poster said, like many conditions it is a spectrum. You don’t know the severity until after the baby is born. You don’t know the cost or resources you’ll need for them to function and live in society . It is relatively easier when they’re high functioning but much more difficult when their low because there is so much to consider for the future for them and the family as a whole. Who is going to take care of the child once the parents pass, what if relatives don’t want to, can’t afford to, or unable to (age), and how many parents out there are looking to adopt a baby or a child with Downs?

Testing for Downs is in the first trimester and if I remember correctly, it only tells you the chances, not if the unborn actually has it. I think it is harder to tell until you get further along where baby’s features can be seen more clearly therefore the limit being where it is. I’m happy to be corrected if this isn’t the reason.

If you support a woman’s right to bodily autonomy then that’s absolute. The alternative is forced birth which is abhorrent

Yes. And also forcing the woman to take on the lifelong responsibility of a disabled child (or putting the child up for adoption and putting that responsibility on someone else) (and remember the man can walk away that much more easily, it was ever thus). It's easy to say you should have a child, not so easy to provide proper care and facilities. And I also agree that an abortion would generally be carried out well within the normal limits, not at the last minute.

In practice, I suspect of Heidi's challenge succeeds, it will have exactly the opposite effect to the one she's hoping for.

Instead of parents having the time to multiple scans, tests, counselling etc and the chance to really talk it over between themselves and wider family and friends if they choose to do so, there will be a hard decision deadline looming.

Faced with that decision, more people are likely to choose to abort,and it will become more unusual to see children living with conditions which could be identified during pregnancy.

@arethereanyleftatall

I had an amino test for downs at 18 weeks as my bloods came back as very high risk but this had been missed by my midwife. The amino results, for some reason, did not come back for 6 weeks and by that time I was 24+3 pregnant. If the result had been positive, I would have had a termination at over 24 weeks.
My sister had an amino at 28 weeks as she went for a scan at 27 weeks due to the baby not growing. They suspected Edwards syndrome. Her results came back at 32 weeks and she had a termination at 33 weeks under GA.

I struggle with this as I realise I'm one of the abhorrent people who believe on a gestational cap for abortion. I don't think in theory you should be able to abort a baby at 40 weeks. I feel like I should support this as I support abortion up to the current legal limit (actually I think it should be moved away from the 24 viability point)

Given that, the increase in testing for t13, t18 and y21 at 12 weeks, the anomoly scan at 20 weeks I don't think that the baby having a disability should make a difference to thsat limit when the kind of disabilities for which an abortion to term is permissable includes things life cleft palate which is treated fairly routinely in the UK.

But then I also get that that makes me a bad person for forcing mothers to do through a pregnancy they don't want.

I can't reconcile the two halves

Very very sensitive subject!!
We declined any antenatal testing. If the tests came back as high risk I wouldn't have gone ahead with any amniocentesis and further down the line I couldn't terminate. I couldn't live with myself re taking a life.
That is a my personal opinion and the correct decision for our family.
That decision may not be right for other people and their family. It has nothing to do with me or anyone else. The law shouldn't change, every one has their own circumstances.

@Soontobe60 thanks. Sorry for your sister.

Then I think when you find out is absolutely crucial in the making of your decision. If you haven't found out by 24 weeks, how can you be expected to make an informed decision.

I’m of the opinion that all lives should be equal and therefore the cut off should be the same for all, unless the mother’s life is at risk.

Yes, that is hard for those parents who discover their child has downs at 24 weeks+ but it’s also hard, and far more common, to have discover a disability after birth and no-one would suggest death at that point. It is important in our society that all are treated equally.

Heidi needs to wind her fucking neck in.
Honestly, she hasn’t got the foggiest idea what a late term termination is like. Why people have them. And how gut wrenching they are.
I’m really glad that she has lived a wonderful life with downs, my family have too. But that’s not the point.
I had a termination at 19w when I was 21, because hand on heart I believed I was doing what was best for my baby because I loved them so much. I didn’t want them to have a life of pain, suffering and bullying. I didn’t want my little boy to grow up in a piss poor family with a student Mum who couldn’t support him.

I wanted him to have everything and I couldn’t give it to him. I didn’t want his tiny body to hurt, or his mind not to be able to understand. I love him with every ounce of my being. I speak to him everyday.

If Heidi wants to address this issue, then women’s autonomy isn’t what she should be going after.
She needs to lobby for more funding into day centres, and respite and money for schools to have one on one TA’s.
Money for OT’s and Physio’s and not try and strip women of their right to choose.

Cases like this should be thrown out of court, because, as a pp said:

I shall never understand how someone, anyone, can believe their personal circumstances are so important as to impinge on absolutely everyone

It's a very small number of abortions which take place after 21 weeks. Form what I've read it's more often to do with medical complications and the risk to the mother rather than concerns over a baby being born with a disability.

www.cbruk.org/abortionstatistics

Complete side track but club foot???
One of my twins had a unilateral club foot. (hate that term!) (talipes is the term now)
It makes very little difference to his life or mine.
I appreciate that it can be the first spottable sign of a syndrome but talipes on its own is so manageable. We were never offered an abortion (again may be the lack of syndrome)

Easy for me to say (not being in that position) but I don't think I could abort.
I don't think other women shouldn't be allowed the choice though

After a bit of light googling, it seems that 0.1% of abortions (in 2018) in the UK were performed over 24 weeks. 90% under 13 weeks.

As much as I have sympathy for the girl's view, as early as possible, as late as necessary. Always.

I think most would struggle to reconcile both sides @SleepingStandingUp. There's no happy options really. Fwiw I don't think you're abhorrent either. I think it would be strange for this to not make people uncomfortable.

The reality is, virtually no abortions are happening beyond 24 weeks. Only 1.4% occur after 20 weeks. This study discusses some of the reasons women have for why they had second trimester abortions: www.bpas.org/media/1202/second_trimester_abortions__ingham.pdf

They range from service issues (lack of availability of appointments and HCPs making it harder for them to access abortion services to thinking they were much less far along than they were due to irregular cycles or the continuation of their periods). It’s clear that women aren’t just deciding on a whim after 20 weeks that they don’t want to be pregnant any more.

I couldn’t find statistics for how many abortions took place past 24 weeks in recent years. I did find a House of Commons speech suggesting that the figure in 2009 was 134 abortions. 194,743 abortions in total took place that year. That’s 0.06 percent.

We have to trust women to make the right decisions for themselves about abortion. The statistics show that the overwhelming majority of abortions take place before 12 weeks. Where abortions take place later than that, it’s clear that there are complex reasons. A law which prevents women from making a decision for themselves about their own circumstances is completely wrong.

I do not consider it discriminatory that the time limit for abortion where a foetus is disabled is higher than for a foetus which is not, because in this country we do not ascribe personhood to the unborn. You only have human rights once you are born, and no longer dependent on the body of another person.

But even if we do ascribe that right to foetuses, surely the solution is to raise the cut off for all abortions? That way there could be no suggestion of discrimination, but we are still leaving decisions in the hands of the women who should be entitled to make them.

If this campaign was truly about equality, rather than controlling women’s bodies, that’s what it would be campaigning for.

Excuse my ignorance, I genuinely don't understand an abortion at 40 weeks. Surely that is just inducing a birth?

Isnt the number of late term abortions pretty tiny anyway?

Consisting mostly of those who have had test results only just come back, and women who's situation is such that they physically have not been able to access healthcare such as victims of abuse/control who physically couldn't leave the house?

Everyones circumstances are different and its wrong to force anyone to raise a baby they wouldnt be able to care for properly.

In answer to some people's questions about when you find out: I had amniocentresis, the definitive test after my 20 week scan (actually at 22 weeks) showed a heart defect. I got the full results of that test 3 and a half weeks later, at which point I was nearly 27 weeks pregnant. I would imagine it would have taken at least another week to get a termination organised if I had needed to.

Before that scan the risks of a chromosomal abnormality came back as very low from the blood test so I hadn't had amniocentresis. That would be one reason that people find out much later. You might also see a combination of defects at the 20 week scan which suggests a lower quality of life.

I had never imagined myself in that nightmare scenario, so I can see why it might be hard to imagine needing an abortion that late.

@1forsorrow I don't think this is the place to discuss it in detail as it could be upsetting for people. You can probably find the information on the nhs website.

SharpieInThe tbf it's further whoring charged as if is had a prenatal diagnosis is have been offered / pushed towards an abortion and treatment may have been withheld.

@1forsorrowa well no because that would result in a live birth. You can not act to save the baby if they're very poorly and need resus bit if your intention is for that baby to definately be born alive, it would be an abortion. Altho in reality I can't imagine a scenario where that would happen

Also remember the Irish lady who wasn't given medical treatment she wanted and needed because it could have harmed her pregnancy, putting doctors at risk legally, and she died. Doctors need to be able to treat legally when necessary.

I think the full-term abortion is a straw-man. The reality is that the law is used to allow later scans to make a better prediction on survivability/quality of life.

I totally understand why Heidi is upset by this, but DS is a wide spectrum and a womsn should never be forced to continue with a pregnancy.

I think she's being used by pro-life groups.

She’s not a “girl”, she’s a 24 yr old woman !!

I have a disabled son.

I don't agree the law should be changed.

I do agree that there needs to be discussions around this particular case of the lady (on sky news this morning) that felt she was being pressurised to have an abortion.

It's choice. No one should be forced to bring a child into the world who they feel will suffer a short life of pain anymore than someone should be made to feel their child doesn't have a right to life.