Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

@Lockheart
There were 289 abortions after 24 weeks gestation in 2018. As far as I'm concerned that's still way too high. They, if born, statistically, would have survived.
10% of all abortions happen after 13 works.
There were 618 abortions due to Downs syndrome.

All abortion is abhorrent and should be banned IMO.

Well I think prosecco is abhorrent and should be banned but fortunatly my thoughts and wants dont override everyone elses.

Excellent article here on late term abortion Does this woman really think it is justifiable to prevent people like these families from obtaining terminations?

They, if born, statistically, would have survived

Viability is irrelevant. It is only important if the child is wanted.

I think the problem is

“At the moment in the UK, babies can be aborted right up to birth if they are considered to be “seriously handicapped”. They include me in that definition of being seriously handicapped – just because I have an extra chromosome! Can you believe that?

What it says to me is that my life just isn’t as valuable as others, and I don’t think that’s right. I think it’s downright discrimination! "

I am anti abortion for myself, but absolutely defend every woman's right to choose for herself. But I would qualify that. I do not believe that late abortions are right. My Granddaughter would not be here if my daughter had taken the offer of a late abortion because the baby had Agenesis of the corpus collosum. If you met my beautiful granddaughter, you might think that she was perhaps a little behind in her speech, but that's all you'd notice. It may be that my opinions on the right to life for people with any disability are different to some, because I worked for 11 years with adults with probably the most severe disabilities, both physical and learning disabilities, but I cannot see that club foot, cleft lip, or Downs Syndrome are valid reasons to terminate a pregnancy.

@MarieQueenofScots because babies are still being killed in the womb despite me personally not having an abortion?

That's like saying if you're against murder just dont murder anyone yourself and let other people make their own decisions. Wrong is wrong, no matter how many people disagree.

@TinySleepThief you cant really compare a drink to a living human though can you?

@justhereforthetips @1forsorrow I believe an injection is administered prior to it being delivered If the baby was delivered alive then that is not an abortion

As I said I wouldn't like to ask her more than she just volunteered. My understanding is she told us she was going into hospital for an abortion due to the baby having a condition that would mean it wouldn't live more than minutes or at most hours if it went to term. She was distressed that she was going to have to go through labour. When it was all over she showed us the photos. I suppose the baby could have been dead and she just wanted to say he was alive for a few minutes, maybe that comforts her. I don't know.

Down’s syndrome is being eradicated from the western world that is a statistical fact.
My first ivf pregnancy I got given the old fashioned percentage based on age and scan...I would have agonised about aborting because of the risk of aborting a healthy baby, recent ivf pregnancy I got the new 99% accurate blood test at 8/ 10 weeks and would have aborted if she had downs
We are old parents, have no money and no family support and our first baby has additional needs so would not have been right for us to continue with a child that would have broken us
As always it’s awesome to see people triumph in lift who have adversity be it disability ...
but a woman’s body HAS to be hers alone in ALL horrible choices

Less than 1% of abortions are done after 24 weeks. That means women are doing astoundingly good to make such a decision in a good amount of time.

If they want more women to decide before 24 weeks, then the health services needs to:
a) Develop better diagnostic tests that can be used earlier in pregnancy with higher accuracy
b) Guarantee all appointments within 3 days of request.
c) Provide test/scan results within 48hrs of the event.

because babies are still being killed in the womb despite me personally not having an abortion?

That’s not your business.

That's like saying if you're against murder just dont murder anyone yourself and let other people make their own decisions. Wrong is wrong, no matter how many people disagree

Do you really need me to explain why one is legal and one isn’t?

People who profess to be pro-life aren’t. They’re pro-forced birth. Not one of them cares what happens to the child once it is born.

She claims to have been offered a termination when she found out her son was/had DS at 34 weeks. No offense I genuinely don’t know correct term.
Surely testing happens before then to avoid delay. She didn’t. Have to be tested. It’s not new news that you don’t have to be tested. Or that you don’t have to take up their offer of termination.
I think she is very much in love with her child and finds the idea of being offered termination for such a wonderful child so abhorrent it has motivated her lawsuit.
However that is her experience, she can do what she wants and others can do what is right for them. Without judgment or guilt tripping.

you cant really compare a drink to a living human though can you?

It wasn't about comparing a drink the point of my comment was to show you how stupid it is to use your own views to create a blanket policy. Just because you think something is abhorrent doesnt mean it should be banned. Why is your opinion more important than that of the one making thr decision to abort?

We talk here about about Downs. But presumably if her case is late term abortion due to disability should be illegal then we are also talking about cases where babies have conditions that are incompatible with life or life expectancy of hours/days/weeks. Including conditions like anencephaly.

98% of downs embryos get aborted

@MarieQueenofScots
Testing for chromosomal issues can happen from 10 weeks. If having a child with Downs syndrome would be an issue for you as a parent then the options are:.
1 don't get pregnant ever - preferable
2 be responsible. Pay for early testing.
3 have the NHS testing.

Fwiw. High results on NHS tests get fed back very quickly, not in 14 days. My own test was conducted Friday and I was called on the Sunday.
If the condition is an issue the emphasis should be on the woman acting ASAP. So yes, even if reliant on NHS test say being at 13 weeks, 16 to 18 weeks max for an abortion is not an unreasonable expectation.

SoloMummy

There are countless conditions that could be a reason someone chooses to abort that are only discovered at the “20 week” scan.

I am torn on this topic. On one hand, if no one is performing abortions for cleft lip up to birth, why leave a legal provision for it? I know someone who was silently pressurised (by women of her own family) to have a late abortion (or rather, induced labour) for what was a largely cosmetic defect. Quite traditional culture, having a disfigured baby would have some societal cost. It wasn't in the UK, but I am sure there could be instances like that here as well.
On the other hand - yes, bodily autonomy and, even with all the state help, it will bery likely be the mother left holding the baby.

1forsorrow it could also beat her grief and guilt made it feel an abortion rather than an induction with treatment withheld iyswim. The fact baby lived and she held baby suggests it wasn't an abortion even if she feels like that's what she did. Sounds like she lives the baby and did what she felt was right. Despite my conflicting feelings in the matter, like 81Byerly confounded by having a child they would have easily aborted at any stage, that's what matters

98% of downs embryos get aborted

Source?

And I think that perhaps Pixie is just trying to wind people up. Surely there aren’t people who seriously believe what she does in the year 2020.

It matters not what the mother wants if the child being born could survive

So you’re pro- forced birth?

If she hasn't got an abortion sooner, then once viability has been reached it should not be permitted

Viability isn’t an exact science

I trust women to make good decisions for themselves and their families.

I don’t trust anyone else to make that decision for them. The law must remain as it is.

29 week scan wouldn't suddenly be discovering a high risk of Downs syndrome though. And that's my point.

DS is discovered much earlier on. So that should mean abortion for that reason alone, should only be valid at any earlier gestation.

Other issues, not involving Downs syndrome at 20 weeks plus, are an entirely different issue,not to be lumped in with this discussion.

20 week scan even.