Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

Given the cleft lip and palette and club foot are also covered by this legislation it is well overdue an overhaul.

I don't agree with abortion up to term.

I guess I’m most shocked that you can terminate a pregnancy up until the due date if the baby has a cleft lip or club foot. I don’t want to minimise the impact that these birth defects can have, but I am shocked that they meet the criteria for a late abortion.

Just to be clear, does anyone seriously think babies are routinely aborted at 39/40 weeks for a cleft lip or club foot?

Or are you bringing out extreme examples purely because they are so extreme, rather than because they are likely...?

We've had this exactly same thread before, no it descended into the same argument.

It's very simple really, if you don't like abortion, then don't have one. There should be no argument on what an individual woman can do with her body when pregnant.

@SleepingStandingUp well no because that would result in a live birth. You can not act to save the baby if they're very poorly and need resus bit if your intention is for that baby to definately be born alive, it would be an abortion. Altho in reality I can't imagine a scenario where that would happen Sorry I don't understand that Particularly this bit, if your intention is for that baby to definately be born alive, it would be an abortion.

I'm confused as I have a close relative who had a late abortion, not 38 weeks but late, as far as I remember she had the anomaly scan then due to results had other tests and with delays etc I think she was about 26 weeks. She went through labour and said that is what they do after a certain time. Baby was delivered, she has photos of her holding the baby, and lived a short time, minutes I think. So what happens if you have a late abortion and baby lives?

@justhereforthetips, sorry didn't want to google as thought it might have some dubious results.

I've never wanted to ask my relative any detailed questions so I just know what she talked about. It was a very much wanted baby, IVF, and I know she struggled with it all but the positive thing was she had a healthy baby about a year later.

@NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite

I felt the need to change my name because it's a very controversial and sensitive topic. I also wouldn't want my aunt (who might recognise my other posts) seeing this thread, misinterpreting my reasons and getting upset. This topic would be taboo in my own family as it would be considered a reflection on my cousin's level of function. However the fact this is not a topic that would ever be discussed with my own family has meant that my husband and I have discussed it in detail before TTC.

I hoor that clarifies?

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

The amount of late-term abortions are vanishingly small. Women do not get 75% of the way through a pregnancy and decide to terminate just because.

Late-term abortions are tragic and upsetting events, and are unlikely to involve foetuses with Downs syndrome. They are usually carried out for much more severe conditions.

But if a foetus is found to have a disability, I don't think anyone should be made to feel guilty for choosing to terminate. We all know that caring for a child with disabilities can be hard and can be utterly life changing, and the child in question could potentially have a life spent in pain or with endless medical procedures.

If someone chooses that for themselves and their child, then I support them. If someone doesn't choose that, I support them as well.

@1forsorrow I believe an injection is administered prior to it being delivered

Aborting for club feet or cleft lip should never be permitted imo.
Downs syndrome abortion, though I disagree with the choice, I think should have to be carried out much earlier. First trimester would be ideal, but certainly before 16 weeks and not after 18-19 weeks when I believe foetuses have survived. There's no excuse for late term abortions for Downs syndrome. The tests are available early, so decisions need to be made early.
If a mother opts out of the early tests, then living with the consequences means no late abortion.

If you support a woman’s right to bodily autonomy then that’s absolute. The alternative is forced birth which is abhorrent

This with bells, whistles and a nice suit on.

I can’t vote for either of your options...

The law clearly is ‘discriminatory‘. But the problem is that it attempts to ‘grade’ reasons for termination.

The law should be changed , yes, to allow any woman termination for any reason at any time.

In practice little would change. Many anomalies are discovered before the legal cut off, very late terminations are extremely rare.

But any idea that there are ‘reasons’ why some women can have a termination and others can’t undermines a woman’s bodily autonomy.

So many of the reasons are shot through with ‘yes, but...’s anyway.

In terms of ‘being able to cope’ severe autism puts an incredible strain on many families, but cannot be identified before birth. For example.

My daughter died shortly after she was born. She didn’t have any chromosome abnormality, but the placenta failed and as a result she was born brain dead. I met another mother who had experienced very similar except her baby survived. I remember her telling me how she wished her baby hadn’t because he had such profound disabilities and couldn’t do anything for himself, was always in so much pain, and the care for him had ended her marriage and ruined her relationship with her older children.

Sometimes, it’s kinder for the baby and the whole family.

Down Syndrome is possibly tricker though as unlike many other chromosomes abnormalities, sometimes the babies can have happy lives into adulthood. However, not all do. Some have short lives full of operations or else the pregnancy ends in a stillbirth or child’s death. It’s the unpredictable nature of how DS affects that I think some people are unaware of.

Baby was delivered, she has photos of her holding the baby, and lived a short time, minutes I think. So what happens if you have a late abortion and baby lives?

If the baby was delivered alive then that is not an abortion

First trimester would be ideal, but certainly before 16 weeks and not after 18-19 weeks when I believe foetuses have survived

So women need to choose to abort before they have the anomaly scan?

I know that the pro-choice point of view doesn't have the cute optics of the emotive pro-life campaign, in which cute babies are juxtaposed against the image of the selfish woman. But this debate should not be entered with your brain at the door.

Body autonomy is paramount. It's the absolute cornerstone of a civilised society. You can bombard the opposition with your hurt feelings but they are irrelevant. A woman's right to chose comes first because the alternative is unthinkable.

As others have said, late-term abortions are very rare, and not something anyone would deliberately wait for.

I had a private (££) CVS test done at 11ish weeks for both my pregnancies. This gives very detailed and definitive information for a number of serious abnormalities. It would make more sense if these campaigners were lobbying for that to be routinely available, as then any decisions to terminate can be taken much earlier than they usually are with an amnio.

There is a tiny risk to the pregnancy when you have a CVS, so there is no point in having it unless you are certain you will act on the results. I always knew that I would terminate if there was a severe problem. I am under no illusions about how hard it is to raise a disabled child, (I volunteered with a disability charity for years), and I know that the reality is far away from the positive poster-child images we often see.

@TheRealShatParp yes you can, but honestly how many abortions do you think are carried out at 38 weeks for a cleft palate or a talipes?

Women don't get that far along and then decide to terminate for something so relatively minor.

@BeyondDreamsOfBeyondFourWalls whether it’s likely or not isn’t relevant. What’s relevant is that people can abort up to the due date if their baby has a cleft lip or club foot.

@1forsorrow it's possible baby was just induced and then no medical support given? Or as just said but I think that late it would be intended that she would be with baby for as long as they lived rather than an "oh it went wrong"

I agree wholeheartedly with @EtonMessy. Heidi is a 24 year old woman. Not a girl. Can’t tell if your language was lazy (many young women get called girls but how often do you see 24 year old men described as boys?) or deliberately meant to undermine Heidi.

All abortion is abhorrent and should be banned IMO.

Link to her being interviewed, I don't think she really understands the issue. Since when did we change laws because it made someone upset?

A quick search shows me Heidi has also been an advocate of keeping the eighth amendment in Ireland and opposing more acurate screening for DS

dontscreenusout.org/

I think she's being used by pro-life groups.

This ^ in spades. It appears she has done a mini tour of the UK oposing changes to abortion law.

@Pixiefringe don't have one then forced birthers are abhorrent.

YANBU OP

You cant get screened for Downs until 10-13weeks. It then takes 1-2weeks to get the results. The results do have a chance of false positive, so you can be told the baby almost certainly has Downs when they do not. This makes it even more heartbreaking to make a decision to abort or not. Many go on to do an amniocentesis which is most accurate way to find out- another test, more time. So, you have to allow at least two months for all this after the 15week initial test result shows risk of Downs. If the 24 week limit applied to Downs, many women would not have time to have choice. They’d be forced to have the baby. I can’t agree to that at all.

All abortion is abhorrent and should be banned IMO

Easy. Don’t have one then. But why do you think your views should affect other women? If I have an abortion is doesn’t affect you.