Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

A friend of mine at university got raped by a taxi driver after she got separated from her group.

She found out she was pregnant at 16 weeks. It blows my mind there are people who would deny her the abortion she had.

Girls don’t have babies, women do.

And please don’t compare abortion to cold-blooded murder. It is absolutely not the same.

People who profess to be pro-life aren’t. They’re pro-forced birth. Not one of them cares what happens to the child once it is born

That is not true. Some pro-life organisations have as their focus the support of the mother and child once it is born, including providing financial support. Others have had adoption agencies (eg Catholic Church) - and some of those had significant issues of their own. But is it not true to say not one of them cares what happens to the child.

I have read the TFMR threads on here.

I’ve seen the agonies women go through choosing whether to continue a much wanted pregnancy knowing the child will have a short, painful life.

I don’t think the limit should be reduced here. As the mother of a thankfully totally healthy child delivered at 32 weeks that’s hard to say but these decisions are being made out of love, and I wish there was a way to stop anyone having to make that decision ever again.

But taking away their right to love their child by not carrying on bringing it into a world of pain and struggling is not the way to do that.

Agreed Marie. It’s a shame People cant be pro life and not pass judgement of others.

Some pro-life organisations have as their focus the support of the mother and child once it is born, including providing financial support

How can they profess to support the mother when their raison d’être is forcing her to give birth?

@66redballons Girls don’t have babies, women do. I found out I was pregnant weeks after my 17th birthday, legally I was a child so yes girls do have babies.

I saw this too OP and tbh, it really annoyed me. Her Mum is clearly helping/influencing and I don't think their personal feelings and circumstances should speak for the entire country.

Yes, it must be desperately sad to know people abort a foetus if found to have Down syndrome when you feel like you're living life and okay with it.
But I think the lack of understanding that it's a spectrum is why this campaign shouldn't be listened to, it's completely biased.

My children are both severely autistic, I wish there was a test for that. I'd want to be better prepared and the harsh reality is, if we knew DS2 was also going to be severely autistic, we may have thought twice about the pregnancy. That's not to say we don't love and adore him, of course we do.

It's not just about bodily autonomy in pregnancy though. I get punched, spat on, kicked and strangled all the time. I get pee thrown on me and clawed. I also have do weight training because I have an almost 4 year old who can't walk down the stairs and a 6 year old who will lie on the floor and not get back up. It's a choice for life, not just pregnancy

There were 618 abortions due to Downs syndrome Assuming the majority would have survived, do you believe the care system could adequately care for 500 babies with t21 every year including appropriate medical interventions?
205,295 abortions were carried out in England and Wales
Even if we took a very high pre natal fatality rate, do you think the case system could support an extra 100-150k babies given up for adoption each year?

No I don’t think the law should change

Some things aren’t picked up on in time, then abortion clinics could be busy so you don’t get there in time either

Women should have the right to abort as they wish.

Girls don’t have babies, women do. you think 14 yos suddenly become women upon pregnancy?

As I said upthread, this test should be routinely offered to all, as it can be done from 11 weeks. Under current NHS arrangements, it is usually done later, (if at all) after tests & scans etc.

I paid to have it done at 11 weeks, and it was the first test I had.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/chorionic-villus-sampling-cvs/

There’s another way of looking at this problem. I believe we have to give women choices with abortion because if we don’t the results are terrible for the child, the woman and society.

Now the choice to have a child with disabilities also has a lot to do with how much help and support you can get. Imagine finding out your child will have Down syndrome and you’re wealthy with a very supportive partner, that’s a very different choice to a person who is going to be an isolated, single mum, those are completely different decisions. If this woman felt society would help her out and her child would have a chance at a fulfilling life she may be more likely to have the baby.

So you’re pro- forced birth?

How do you think late term aborted babies get out of the womb?

How can they profess to support the mother when their raison d’être is forcing her to give birth?

They don’t force the mother to do anything, they focus on finding a way to enable a mother to keep a child where the mother may otherwise feel she is unable to do so and abortion is the only option.

@SleepingStandingUp it could also beat her grief and guilt made it feel an abortion rather than an induction with treatment withheld iyswim. The fact baby lived and she held baby suggests it wasn't an abortion even if she feels like that's what she did It sounds like it, I suppose deliberately inducing a baby at 26 weeks intending to withhold treatment is effectively, if not technically, an abortion.

@SoloMummy, after the whole Alfie Evens situation I ended up on a page to support parents of terminally ill babies. Support was asked for one Mother because she'd made the decision to put her son under palliative care, instead of an operation and she was getting hounded over it. She changed her mind and her Son lived for another year, having fits and strokes, never leaving his hospital beds (he had to be transferred around the country which meant no family were with him at times) until he died around 18 months. It was a similar story for many. All of these women had been offered late term terminations. So although the baby is viable, most of the 289 terminations given, how many would live past two years old? How many wouldn't just spend months in hospital after Birth, to die? There aren't enough transplant organs for new borns and the Doctors know what the outcome will be. The Downs babies selected for pre birth abortion may be the ones who have fatal heart disease/damage or other organ damage.

Those 289 late term terminations need breaking down further. Because I'd doubt if more than half of those, if that, would live long. We need a comparison figure of how many babies survive into toddlers, of those who the doctors recommend late term abortions for.

@1forsorrow friends who have had babies with t18/Edwards, the language changed from abortion to early induction at around 24 weeks under the guise that they wouldn't kill the foetus, they just wouldn't the baby, so you could have a few minutes together etc

They don’t force the mother to do anything, they focus on finding a way to enable a mother to keep a child where the mother may otherwise feel she is unable to do so and abortion is the only option

So you’re trying to assert their motives are purely altruistic? I don’t agree for one moment.

We have to maintain absolute choice.

As a society we also accept that some women choose to continue with pregnancies where the child is born with profound disabilities and then requires years of operations, ventilation and tube feeding. We support that choice, which in cost alone can be millions, so we must also support the choice to terminate. Both instances have the same information, both should be supported in their decision.

@SleepingStandingUp you think 14 yos suddenly become women upon pregnancy? When I had my last baby there was a 14 year old in the ward, her school friends would come in on the way home from school (usually making lots of noise and too many of them so midwives would end up telling them to leave) definitely not women, little girls playing with a doll was more like it. I've often wondered how she got on, her parents didn't visit in the 3 days I was there, in fact no adult visited.

The rights of the unborn child do not trump the rights of the woman. Ever.

People don't have late term abortions because they think "meh, don't really want this baby anymore".

I am an advocate for abortion. As early as possible/as late as necessary.

I think there’s a different argument about making sure enough societal support is in place so that women don’t feel abortion is their only choice due to financial or care pressures too.

Whilst I support the rights of the woman overall - I really struggle with late term abortion when the baby is viable - I get that forced birth is horrible but wouldn't a termination at this stage effectively be a birth anyway?
That said if a woman is forced to have a baby- what would the options be for that baby - would she end up being forced to keep it in reality?
I hadn't realised club foot was still on there- that seems ridiculous as I don't think that is a serious disability..or at least its correctable

@SleepingStandingUp, I suppose it sounds kinder, perhaps would be good for my relative if she could view it as an early delivery of a baby who would not live whatever they did. I think the fact she views it as she aborted a much wanted baby has made it hard for her. It is a few years ago but even with the birth of her healthy baby she has always had a sadness about her which I think is entirely understandable.