Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

1forsorrow but wrong as those people are - and they are - they are not changing the law to literally force women like you to have a termination. The pro life lobby really do want to force women to keep pregnancies they do not want. And we all know women die from unsafe illegal abortions, effectively a death sentence for abortion. That is the greater wrong by far.

Spare me the bollocks about a woman's body her choice - when a decision to terminate is made solely because of a survivable disability, and the mother would have continued the pregnancy should the baby have been 'abled' then let's call it what it is - eugenics

I tell you what, let's make women birth disabled children. Then you can look after them all.

It's very easy to get on your high horse about eugenics when it's not you looking after the disabled children.

Just because a disability is survivable, it's doesn't mean the child has any quality of life. It's not about eradicating disability. It's about not forcing children to be born into low quality lives of pain and frustration shunned from society. It's about not bringing a child into a family that could tear apart the family, create financial insecurity, compete sacrifice of life for the mother, cause depression and resentment in the other family members.

Yes in happy happy la la land all the disabled children would be loved and cared for and be valued members of society. But that's not the world we live in. They have painful conditions, they require 24 hour care, there are little to no resources provided by the state and so a parent, usually the mother, has to sacrifice their carer, their financial independence and their emotional wellbeing, all for £250 per month carers allowance.

People are moaning about being on lockdown, missing out on holidays and seeing friends and going out for meals and drinks - that's the life of a carer. We are stuck at home unable to participate in society because our children can not acsess society. How do you think you go for a meal when you have school age child thats in nappies. Or go on holiday with a child that has 20 fits a day, or is on a peg and oxygen support.

Fuck your eugenics, you give up your life for a profoundly disabled child - then come back and say we need to end abortion for reason of disability.

Heidi and the don,t screen us out campaign are wanting the same rights for all so abortion stops at 24 wks unless it is a risk to mother or child. DS/ cleft palletes/ Spina bifida do not fall inot the cattergory. Patteus syndrome does as that is normally incompatible with life.

And yes I am aware of what that entails, my nephew has a significant disability and my uncle was brain damaged during birth. Both are loved and valued and welcome members of our family, with as much right to live as any of us 'ableds'.

Do you honestly think you know what it's like to be the parent of a disabled child based on that limited experience.

Firstly disability is a spectrum. Secondly, do you really think my siblings or in laws know how hard my life is? They see a snap shot of me putting on a brave face. The only people who know the truth are my dh and social services.

but wrong as those people are - and they are - they are not changing the law to literally force women like you to have a termination

They're not changing the law but they are applying pressure to try to get a woman to change her mind.

Would you be defending it if it was a Dr doing the same but to a woman requesting a termination?

It's really not on. Give women all of the relevant information and allow her to decide and then respect her decision, on both sides.

pointythings I don't think it is something you can assess like that. Being shouted at (only a few days apart) by people being really aggressive and offensive is not acceptable and it isn't fair to say oh those prolifers are horrible and no prochoice people would ever be nasty because actually prochoice people can be very offensive.

Personally I would never have an abortion and I don't see why I need to justify that to anyone. I would support other women, and I have, in their choice. I had a teenager working for me, 18 year old with very strict parents. She went out one night, got drunk, woke up next morning in a strange place realising she was no longer a virgin. She had no idea who he was or anything about him. I went with her to the clinic, went with her on the day as she had no one else. It was her choice and my choice was just as deserving of respect. It was a bit awkward as I was pregnant at the time and felt my bump wasn't appropriate in the waiting room, the receptionist agreed and found us a separate room to wait in.

As I said my Consultant was brilliant, offered me the triple test when I declined he asked me if I had any particular worries. I said I'm not having an abortion so waste of your time and budget to do the triple test and then amnio. He said don't worry about that, would it help you to know in advance if there is a problem, it might help you to prepare. I said no it wouldn't help and he said that was fine but if I changed my mind to phone his secretary as time was passing and it couldn't be delayed too long and he reassured me that there would be no pressure to have an abortion if the results showed a problem. I trusted him but still didn't want the tests. The midwife took my hand and said if I decided to do it and then the amnio she would be with me and I would get support. I thanked them and that was it.

Second doctor looked at my notes and said Oh your triple test has been missed, we'll do it now and book an amnio in case, not much time if we need to arrange a termination. I said it was fine Mr X and I had discussed it and I wasn't having the blood test. He said I had to, it was compulsory. I told him it wasn't, it was my choice. He asked why I wouldn't want to know, I'd need an abortion. I said no I'm not having an abortion and I'm not having amnio as not taking risk (I'd already had a threatened miscarriage) he sneered and said oh I suppose you're frightened of needles aren't you. He was getting louder and was very aggressive in his manner and midwife stepped in and told him it was my choice and it was agreed with Mr X. He looked furious, slammed my notes closed and walked out. Not nice.

I'm not sure if someone wanting an abortion would get treated in such an aggressive manner by another doctor, I hope not. I didn't make a complaint which I regret.

Sorry didn't mean to write an epic. I'll go and leave you to it but let's support each other, life is hard enough.

Would you be defending it if it was a Dr doing the same but to a woman requesting a termination?

Oh hell no. Both are equally unacceptable. But that does not negate my point about the pro lifers wanting to change the law so that nobody can access abortion. Because ultimately that is what this campaign is about and you would be very naive to think otherwise.

1forsorrow I can't imagine what that must have been like. Easy to say 'oh well you should have reported him' but you were probably too shocked to do so. People like that should not be allowed to practice medicine.

June as has been mentioned upthread, cleft lip and palate can be indications of far more serious underlying conditions - and it is those conditions which often cannot be assessed until later in the pregnancy. You rightly say that Patau's or Edwards are valid grounds for termination - but the reality is that if you start saying that late term abortions are allowed for one condition but not another, you will always have someone falling foul of the law for reasons beyond their control and having to carry a non-viable pregnancy to term. That is why the law needs to stay as it is.

To the posters who have said nobody should be allowed an abortion, here's a genuine situation that happened to me just over 4 years ago.

I'm on the mini pill and needed to change brand. I have a very casual sex partner and we had a condom split. I spoke to the pharmacist, but as I was on the mini pill, had never taken it incorrectly, didn't have any other issues that might cause a loss of efficacy we decided not to go down the route of morning after pill.

4 months later I went for a check up, and they discovered that the brand of mini pill I had been prescribed contraindicated with my long term medication, with a very real risk the mini pill wouldn't be as efficient.

In those circumstances, when I had done everything to prevent pregnancy and had been let down by a medical professional, should I have been denied an abortion if I had fallen pregnant?

No one has the right to dictate what a woman does with her body, regardless of whether that offends you or your beliefs. That extends to abortion. To refuse women the right to choose is a rape of a woman's right to autonomy over her own body.

MarieQueenofScots yes, of course you shouldn't have been allowed an abortion! You had sex. With a casual sex partner! Not for procreation! Punishment is required!

That sadly is how these people think.

Just to clear something up from early on in the thread - Denmark has not 'eliminated' Down's syndrome. A quick google suggests that since 2005, around 120-160 cases are diagnosed prior to birth each year, and of those diagnosed cases, eight or fewer babies have been born each year. The total babies born with Down's has been around 30 each year.

1forsorrow

That was scarily similar to the way that I was treated, other than the person pressurising me was the female consultant. I too wouldn't have an abortion but that's for me. I would absolutely support anyone else who chooses to have one. Just as no one should be pressured to continue a pregnancy that they don't want no one should be pressured to have a termination that they don't want.

@pointythings Well no, actually. That’s how you think they think. Most likely they’re thinking of it as another human life/potential life that can’t help how it was conceived but has a right to live. You may not agree with that opinion but it’s not about wanting to punish the woman for having sex

bumbleymummy then the anti choicers need to stop using the 'well, you had sex, you knew you might get pregnant' line. Because that is what it boils down to - in the absence of a 100% infallible form of contraception, women are the ones who get punished for having sex if you ban abortions. Men get to walk away.

Feel free to continue the 'life' argument. We'll just ignore it.

but has a right to live.

But it doesn't have a right to live inside another woman's body that doesn't want it there.

If there was an option to transplant a feotus to a artificial womb - then you can save all the babies you want. As long as you're willing to look after them. But as long as it needs it's life supporting inside a human being, it doesn't have the right to be there against that humans wishes.

That line isn’t about punishing women, it’s about knowing the potential consequences of having sex. Yes, women are the ones who can get pregnant so it makes sense to be very aware of what can happen and to try to prevent pregnancy in as many ways as possible if it’s not something you want.

You can ignore the life argument all you want but it’s not going to go away. Some people put more value on human life/potential human life than others. Just because you don’t share their opinion doesn’t mean that’s not how they feel about it.

Well that’s your opinion @heatherIV and in the UK the law agrees with you up until 24 weeks (except in cases of disability) Other people feel that a right to life trumps the right to choose to end another life/potential life.

Yanbu the law should remain as it is.

I had an abortion at 26 weeks. It was horrific and distressing for both my DH and myself as well as the rest of our friends and family and also the lovely midwifery team who cared for us both.

My Dh and I didn’t want to make the decision but our baby was severely disabled and would have faced nothing but a life of pain and suffering.

I think anyone that makes the decision to abort a baby that has been nourished and nurtured for over 6 months does so only after much discussion. Nobody should ever judge someone else for making a certain choice until they’ve walked in those shoes

If you support a woman’s right to bodily autonomy then that’s absolute. The alternative is forced birth which is abhorrent

This with a million fucking bells on.

That line isn’t about punishing women, it’s about knowing the potential consequences of having sex. Yes, women are the ones who can get pregnant so it makes sense to be very aware of what can happen and to try to prevent pregnancy in as many ways as possible if it’s not something you want

Did you see my experience? Are you saying in that situation an abortion isn’t appropriate

At the end of the day, it simply is punishing a woman for having sex. A potential life doesn’t have more rights than the actual life needed to carry it to give it life.

bumbleymummy so you are opening a massive can of worms here... In the absence of fail safe contraception and where abortion is illegal, what will happen (and used to happen) is that women will end up having to choose between maintaining their relationship (and that includes marriages) because they and their partner want sex but can't risk another pregnancy. For health reasons, for financial reasons, whatever. So the woman says no, no sex, can't risk it. The partner walks away. It's well known that women tend to end up poorer after divorce. The existing children suffer.

That's one set of potential consequences.

The other is that the woman and her partner continue to have sex, she gets pregnant and has a back street abortion, then dies of complications. Right there you have a death sentence for having sex.

And you call yourself pro life...

@pointythings Thank you, it was awful particularly because I'd had so many problems early on. A lovely lady I worked with told me it would have been better if the miscarriage had happened as nature knows best. I think I was psychotic after I gave birth, I was convinced he had DS and whenever I saw midwives or doctors talking on the ward I was sure they were discussing me and waiting for the right moment to tell me. It made me very over protective of him, I don't think I put him down till he was 3. He slept in my arms for 3 years. I think I needed help but I must have been good at convincing people I was OK. I wasn't in any state to complain about him but I feel I should have, I just hope the midwife might have.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras horrible isn't it. Generally I've been lucky with doctors and midwives but he certainly balanced it out.

You can ignore the life argument all you want but it’s not going to go away. Some people put more value on human life/potential human life than others. Just because you don’t share their opinion doesn’t mean that’s not how they feel about it.

Perhaps. It is strange though that the groups that tend to advocate most against abortion tend to vote conservative/republican and so also endorse removing and dismantling health, support and respite services. I don't doubt that some pro-lifers will be genuinely concerned about the potential for life, but as a rule it does seem to be a stick to beat women with. If the people vigil-ing outside clinics genuinely cared their time would be better spent at their local Barnados charity.

If the people vigil-ing outside clinics genuinely cared their time would be better spent at their local Barnados charity.

And there’s so many ways that those wii hi o genuinely care about the sanctity of life, and all that, could help. I’ll repost from HeatherIV’s post up thread.

People are moaning about being on lockdown, missing out on holidays and seeing friends and going out for meals and drinks - that's the life of a carer. We are stuck at home unable to participate in society because our children can not acsess society. How do you think you go for a meal when you have school age child thats in nappies. Or go on holiday with a child that has 20 fits a day, or is on a peg and oxygen support.

There’s lots of ways pro-lifers, who are against eugenics could help families like Heather’s. True, with intractable epilepsy, PEG feeds and oxygen many would need a nursing background. However, to allow the family breathing space and to help with the other children at the busy times of the day there’s a whole heap of practical care that would be useful.

I don’t see the same people chanting and waving placards when disability services and respite are cut, either. It’s almost like they don’t actually care once the child is born, and the whole issue is actually about something else.

@MarieQueenofScots Anyone pro-life is not going to think an abortion is ‘appropriate’ for that reason, no.

It’s possible to use more than one method of contraception or @pointythings to consider sterilisation if you don’t want any more children.

I’ll just pre-empt all the ‘oh but what if ‘ posts and say that if you think of the foetus as another life (As pro-life people do) then it’s like weighing up any of those reasons against a live baby sitting in front of you and very very few people in that situation are going to think those reasons justify killing the baby. You may not agree with that position and think of it as a bundle of cells/not a baby/ not legally a person until it’s born etc etc but others feel differently.