Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

@Gimmecaffeine
I agree with you about Timekeeper1

I am not trying to be incendiary here, but the people who say forced births are abhorrent, you do realise that any foetus over 20 weeks old, and often a lot earlier than that, have to be born vaginally anyway (unless there is a strong surgical reason for a caesarean). When you are aborting the foetus you give birth to either a child that has died during the process, or to a live born child that is then put to one side and left until it dies - depending on a lot of things, but particularly it's age, a child born at term or even several weeks before term, may stay alive for up to about 24 hours. The baby (because most are a fully formed baby by then), has to die from a lack of fluid and food, and in it's own mess. That is abhorrent to me. I think that all foetuses that have already formed into a baby - heart beating, nervous system working, nails formed etc eg by 12 weeks gestation at the very latest - and are going to be aborted through choice, should be injected with a mixture of sedation and analgesia, whilst still in the womb, to make sure the foetus is dead before it has to start the traumatic birth process, and then be left to die anyway.

@Timekeeper1
You know what I don’t even know why I’m replying to you.
I have never made my other child feel they need to help it care for their brother in fact the opposite and I’ve encouraged them to move away, travel and never feel they need to have any responsibility at all for their brother even move to the other side of the world. They have had the best of everything and if anything they are the one who has had all the attention and the best of everything we could give them.
You still didn’t say whether you’ve had experience or knowledge of disabilities.
From your posts I get the feeling you’ve nothing better to do and you’ve had quite a sad life yourself.

We cannot have a rational debate on this when people are going around trying to silence truth-tellers.

There’s definitely a publicly acceptable narrative around children with disabilities that involves perspectives changing, lives being enhanced and a different but welcomed pace (aka that hideous “Welcome to Holland”).

However, in spite of that, most women choose to terminate when faced with the commonly tested for genetic syndromes or with significant birth defects.

I wonder if it’s because even though people don’t SAY how relentless and taxing looking after a child with severe disabilities is, women still seem to be aware of the burden. You don’t see the full extent of the care involved, such as PEG feeds and nappy changes and night resettling and behavioural challenges that are required into adulthood but most women are still aware of the personal sacrifices that will be required.

At least, aware at some level. Obviously no one can be really fully prepared for the challenges of caring for a severely disabled child

@Bl3ss3dm0m Unfortunately most people who are pro choice don't care about how the unwanted child dies, they care more about the 'cHoIcE oF tHe W0mAn!!!' to not be 'burdened' with the child that her choice of actions directly created.

Women's rights begin in the womb. Easy to conveniently ignore that I guess if you can ignore the suffering unborn children go through.

In a late term abortion an injection is administered so the fetus dies before the birth process even starts. There is no ‘leaving to die’, Ble33ed.

Yes, I an quite aware of what abortion entails as I work in the field, and I do maintain that forcing a woman to remain pregnant and give birth is abhorrent.

@Woolybear I have said before on this very thread that I have a very close friend who grew up with a brother with DS. I have spent a lot of time over her house and with her. That is why I know that it isn't as rosy, sweetness and light as you say, and siblings DO resent their DS sibling, I've been that shoulder to cry on, that ear to vent to. If you actually do have a son with DS and are not just saying that, you would know that there really isn't much of an upside. As I said, even the mildest affected (I picked this up from the DS organisation they were a member of) will at the very least need some type of carer in life, even if part time, and that is providing they don't get dementia at age 40. You speak about the condition the manner of someone who has never come across it before. Hence my doubts. No one with a child or relative who has DS is as unrealistic and fanciful as you come across as in your posts. And your absolute determination that your own children would never have any thoughts or feelings that differ from yours is a red flag. If you haven't had a sad life yourself and aren't concocting a story (that clearly doesn't ring true) then I feel very sad for your children. They know how your expectations of how you expect them to feel, and they wouldn't dare deviate from that, at least in your presence, that's sad.

@Pixiefringe Pro-slave birthers forget that when 98% of pregnancies are terminated, the foetus has no brain stem or nervous system. So there is no 'suffering'. It suffers no more than a lounge chair does when you walk into it. But I guess it's easy to ascribe personhood to something no more sentient than a loungechair or table, as it allows you to justify treating actual real human beings, you know, born woman, as nothing but a hen in a battery hen factory, an incubator with no rights. Indeed, with less rights than a table or lounge chair or foetus.

choice of actions directly created

Now that is a vile thing to say! A woman consents to sex, NOT to pregnancy. And she doesn't choose any action that will knowingly give her a child with a disability. This is more of the sexist type 'if she has sex she must PAY THE CONSEQUENCES' language. Sickening, vile, hateful and disturbing that people still think like that. Absolutely abhorrent.

@Timekeeper1 The brain and nervous system are one of the first things to develop - see here We discussed the concept of ‘feeling pain’ earlier and the fact that anesthesia is used for foetal surgery (not abortions as in the articles you linked to) during the second trimester.

@bumbleymummy As we already discussed, that foetus feel pain before the third trimester has now been debunked. Anaethesia is now not indicated (not recommended) for use in a foetus before the third trimester. Lets be honest here.

@timekeeper1
Oh dear poor you!
I have not had a sad life. There have been times when it has been difficult but the good has out weighed the bad. I will show my kids your posts and well have a discussion and despite how my life is or how it’s turned out I have never said women shouldn’t have a choice!
I feel sorry for you.
I think you may have had a sad life to want to carry this discussion on and have a go at me. Perhaps you weren’t loved?

@Bl3ss3dm0m

I am not trying to be incendiary here, but the people who say forced births are abhorrent, you do realise that any foetus over 20 weeks old, and often a lot earlier than that, have to be born vaginally anyway (unless there is a strong surgical reason for a caesarean). When you are aborting the foetus you give birth to either a child that has died during the process, or to a live born child that is then put to one side and left until it dies - depending on a lot of things, but particularly it's age, a child born at term or even several weeks before term, may stay alive for up to about 24 hours. The baby (because most are a fully formed baby by then), has to die from a lack of fluid and food, and in it's own mess. That is abhorrent to me. I think that all foetuses that have already formed into a baby - heart beating, nervous system working, nails formed etc eg by 12 weeks gestation at the very latest - and are going to be aborted through choice, should be injected with a mixture of sedation and analgesia, whilst still in the womb, to make sure the foetus is dead before it has to start the traumatic birth process, and then be left to die anyway.

Bl3ssdm0m you are using deliberate emotive untruths here. When you are having a late term abortion in the UK, the foetus is given a lethal injection before the process of delivery starts, so none of what you describe happens here. The process is still harrowing, but it is not anything like what you are describing. I can only assume you posted this with a strong anti-choice agenda.

*Utah recently passed a law that requires doctors to give anesthesia to a fetus prior to performing an abortion that occurs at 20 weeks of gestation or later.

The law assumes that a fetus may be able to feel pain at that stage in development; however, doctors groups and other critics of the law argue that a fetus cannot feel pain at 20 weeks gestational age.

Indeed, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) said it considers the case to be closed as to whether a fetus can feel pain at that stage in development. [6 Myths About Miscarriage]

"The science shows that based on gestational age, the fetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester," said Kate Connors, a spokesperson for ACOG. The third trimester begins at about 27 weeks of pregnancy.*

www.livescience.com/54774-fetal-pain-anesthesia.html

*Third, the neurons that extend from the spinal cord into the brain need to reach all the way to the area of the brain where pain is perceived. This does not occur until between 23 and 24 weeks, according to the review.

Moreover, the nerves' existence isn't enough to produce the experience of pain, the authors wrote in their review. Rather, "These anatomical structures must also be functional," the authors wrote. It's not until around 30 weeks that there is evidence of brain activity that suggests the fetus is "awake."*

*Fetuses cannot feel pain until at least the 28th week of gestation because they haven't formed the necessary nerve pathways, says Mark Rosen, an obstetrical anesthesiologist at the University of California at San Francisco. He and his colleagues determined that until the third trimester, "the wiring at the point where you feel pain, such as the skin, doesn't reach the emotional part where you feel pain, in the brain." Although fetuses start forming pain receptors eight weeks into development, the thalamus, the part of the brain that routes information to other areas, doesn't form for 20 more weeks. Without the thalamus, Rosen says, no information can reach the cortex for processing.

Fetuses do have reflex reactions that can make them seem pained, Rosen says. "If you see a fetus in utero react to needle stimulation, then the common conclusion is that it must feel." But just as with paraplegics, "that's a reflex that's mediated by the spinal cord; that's not a conscious reaction," he says.*

www.discovermagazine.com/health/when-does-a-fetus-feel-pain

With all respect and sensitivity, of course people are going to say that about a child with a disability. I have yet to come across a child with a disability (particularly cognitive/intellectual) who hasn't been called 'adorable', 'exceptional', 'loving', 'all heart', 'zest for life.full of life', 'sweet' and the most common one (which I find makes it sound like they are talking about a puppy or kitten so a bit patronising) - 'cute'. etc etc. What else would one say? That is being a polite person in a civilised society. It's not like they would say the opposite is it.

For the most part, those are not the words used to describe her. But thanks for suggesting the only reason people see anything in her is as some kind of sop to her disability. I guess the certificates and trophies she has won are all down to her dodgy legs and nothing to do with her above average intellect.

The fact is she is exceptional despite her disability, not because of it. Just like many people are. We aren't surrounded by the kind of people who go for the "inspiration porn" and anyone who suggests she is brilliant just because she does things whilst in a walking frame are told on no uncertain terms why they are mistaken.

@Timekeeper1, I think you need to stop now. Don't know why you are attacking Woolybear but it isn't necessary.

@1forsorrow You haven't noticed that it is Woolybear that has been attacking me, and I've merely responded?

Like I saw someone else say, people don't have late-stage abortions for shits and giggles.
They are all, without exception, difficult and life-changing choices. Something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

My best friend went through a late-stage abortion after their IVF baby was diagnosed with severe brain abnormalities. It was horrible and traumatic. However, her and her husband made the decision to go ahead with the abortion to save the child from a life of pain and confusion. And I entirely supported them in that choice. They did it with their daughter's best interests at heart.

the 'cHoIcE oF tHe W0mAn!!!' to not be 'burdened' with the child that her choice of actions directly created

So basically you want women to be penalised for having sex?

MarieQueenofScots some posters on here are from communities with very 'traditional' views on a woman's position. I have no problem with people speaking honestly in accordance with their beliefs - everyone has a right to their opinion. The worry is that these opinions will end up being forced on women who do not share them, which is why abortion rights are absolutely a hill I am prepared to die on.