Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

some posters on here are from communities with very 'traditional' views on a woman's position. I have no problem with people speaking honestly in accordance with their beliefs - everyone has a right to their opinion. The worry is that these opinions will end up being forced on women who do not share them, which is why abortion rights are absolutely a hill I am prepared to die on

Agreed.

I have a friend who is anti-abortion however she is very clear she is pro-choice for all, her choice is that she wouldn’t have an abortion but other women should access them as needed.

I fully support such an honest view point.

I could never support anyone who think they have the right to other women’s reproductive choices.

@Timekeeper1 No, you keep saying that It’s debunked but it isn’t as you would clearly see if you read any of the many published papers on foetal surgery rather than quoting from an old article about whether there’s a need to used anaesthetic during abortion. (No chance of any bias there - right?) Your statements about the foetus not having a brain or nervous system are simply incorrect. They are one of the first things to form.

Do you honestly think all life, so matter how full of pain and misery for the person, is worth living? I suppose you are against euthanasia then? And do you honestly think it isn't just a fact of life to say someone's parent and/or siblings would burdened? Are you honestly saying that?

I don't think all life is worth living and I support assisted suicide (which I will assume hope is what you meant by euthanasia). My objection to this comment was that you said a child's life would not be worth living if it stop the parents or siblings living a 'normal' life. Is this really what you mean? Anything other than normal family life warrants death?

I'm pleased to see MNHQ deleted your comments, and I'm thankful I didn't read whatever bile was in the second deleted one.

Especially when it takes away the ability to live a normal life from the parents and siblings

Some people (like myself) have made a decision that a pregnancy will continue if the baby has DS therefore I do think it's inappropriate for abortion to be pushed once the women has expressed this opinion.

I'd just like to pick up on this earlier in the thread. I think it's important that women are reminded of their rights throughout, even if that might be unappreciated. You can easily picture a scenario where a woman declines a termination in good faith upon diagnosis but then changes her mind after finding out more about the condition's prognosis, day to day reality of care, lack of support (from either the state or her family) or further defects. Can you imagine trying to start a conversation about termination without an "in" from your HCP, having refused before? If we say that it should be a one-off discussion then we're putting women on a conveyor belt they might feel they can't stop or get off.

It is not until the third trimester that the foetus even has a brain stem or nervous system, so until then it cannot feel pain, it is not aware of it's existence.

This can't be true. Babies born at 23 - 24 weeks clearly have brain stems and nervous systems. Yes they have more developing to do but they aren't born at 24 weeks without s brain stem are they?

@hearhooves no, it’s not true. The brain and nervous system are one of the first things to form.

TheCraicDealer

I see what you are saying but from my experience I was pushed into terminating when tests indicated that my child might have DS. I wasn't given alternatives, it was presented as a done deal. It was only that I was lucky to be working with drs with knowledge of these situations and my own stubbornness really that I was able to access resources to make my own mind up.

I had the triple test at 14 weeks that came back as high risk. I received that news in a message left on my answerphone, where I was told to attend hospital on such and such a date for an amino. I picked up this message at about 6pm when the hospital was closed so, in a panic, I rang a Dr that I worked with and he counselled me through everything, explaining what the results meant, what the amnio involved, what my options were and what might happen. I went for the amnio where the consultant explained that the amnio would tell us definitively if the baby had DS and if that was the case they would book me in for termination - no telling me that was an option. Against my husband's wishes I refused an amnio more because I was not going to be pushed into a termination. The Dr at work out me in touch with a fetal medicine centre and I went there for a detailed 20 week scan where the professor was amazing. He told me that my choices, no matter what they were, were valid and that he would support me. I was reassured by the scan although it wasn't a guarantee and declined all further testing.

In my subsequent pregnancy I refused all prenatal screening and went back to the fetal.medicine hospital for my 20 week scan. So, yes, ensure women are supported if they want to terminate but also support women who choose not to. It's just as valid a decision.

hearhooves it sounds as if matters were handled relatively well in your case. I agree that there should be no pressure either way. However, there should be valid informed consent. I used to work in health research and it's protocol in trials to reconsent at every stage of the research to ensure that the participant has an opportunity to change their mind should they want to. I think mirroring that at all the stages someone going through diagnosing a problem in pregnancy encounters is just good practice. It should be done without pressure, but it absolutely should be done.

Pointything absolutey, it,s good to offer choices, but we here time and time again how parents feel pressured, how they are given out of date info. Or worse case scenario. One reason life expectancy used to be low was because they weren,t offered the medical treatment that they should have been.

it sounds as if matters were handled relatively well in your case.

Sorry, in what way were things handled relatively well?

A distressing test result was delivered to me via an answer phone messaged, picked up after hours.

At my appointment I was given only one option - have amnio, if positive for DS have a termination.

When I refused I was made to feel like a monster for considering to deliver a child with a disability. The consultants view was clearly that if any abnormality is detected then abortion is the only choice.

Any other help, advice or support I received was only through friends and my ability to pay privately for healthcare - how is that a situation being handled well?

Another woman, who wasn't a nurse and so didn't have access to doctors informally (particularly obs and gynae trained drs) would have only received the amnio, termination advice. That isn't well handled in anyone's book.

I completely support a woman's right to choose abortion if that's what she wants. I've cared for women during and after abortions. I completely support that right. Women who choose not to terminate should be equally entitled to support and to have their choice respected.

In my case the pressure to test further became so intense I had a flag added to my notes to tell drs and midwives not to speak to me about it anymore.

The "consenting to sex isn't consenting to pregnancy" is definitely one of the more unintelligent (to say the least) arguments I've ever heard from a pro-abortionist (and THAT is saying something).

It's the same as saying "consenting to eating 8 gallons of ice cream a day isn't consenting to gaining weight!".

Anyway I don't usually come into these threads because seeing the complete disregard for the sanctity of human life absolutely tears me up inside. Seeing unborn babies spoken about like parasites infuriates me. Seeing people with seared consciences attempting to defend the indefensible is too much to bear.

Sorry hooves I misread your post.

They absolutely should not have put pressure on you to have tests once you had refused.

pointythings

I disagree. There's a fine line between raising it repeatedly as a way to check the woman hasn't changed her mind and pushing her into changing her mind.

In my case it was very much the latter. I was in no doubt that they wanted me to have an amnio and if DS was detected the only valid choice in their view was termination. That's not right.

@ 1forsorrow
Thank uou

hearhooves in research, staff are trained in taking informed consent. The same training could easily be applied in maternity. And if a patient felt there was undue pressure - well, that's what PALS is for. A clinician is not entitled to impose their view on the patient. They are however entitled to check that the patient fully understands the situation. That is indeed a very fine line.

Spare me the bollocks about a woman's body her choice - when a decision to terminate is made solely because of a survivable disability, and the mother would have continued the pregnancy should the baby have been 'abled' then let's call it what it is - eugenics. Not allowing an abortion because of survivable disability after a certain point is not "forced birth" because the pregnancy itself is not the problem, the expected perfection of the child's body is. That's a very different issue and one that is obscured in the "her body her choice" mantra.

In my view allowing up until birth abortion for disability is about on par with newborn baby girls being thrown in the trash during the one-child years in China. They also were considered a drain on scarce resources, a hindrance to the parents preferred life and not worth it. We rightly balk at sex being a reason for abortion, we prohibit it even, but that's a bit hypocritical now isn't it? Isn't it abortion for any reason, her body her choice right? To force someone to continue a pregnancy with the 'wrong' gender child is forced birth and saddling them with a child they do not want, is it not? Why is discrimination ok when it comes to disability, and not ok when it comes to sex? Why do we have a right to dictate another woman's reproductive choices because we find sex-selection abhorrent?

Personally I don't think you should ever consider getting pregnant without being prepared for ALL the possibilities, including disability. I mean heck, our 'perfect' babies might later develop cancer, be brain damaged in a car accident, have an autoimmune disease, suffer debilitating mental illness, have diabetes, underlying heart issues, asthma, allergies etc etc etc. Your 'choice' of a perfect-bodied child is an illusion. If you can't love and support a child NO MATTER WHAT then you have no business being a parent.

And yes I am aware of what that entails, my nephew has a significant disability and my uncle was brain damaged during birth. Both are loved and valued and welcome members of our family, with as much right to live as any of us 'ableds'.

I don't want the UK to end up a place where you can only have one view which I sometimes feel we are moving to, that people are not feeling free to express different views. Also NHS doctors and nurses should not assume everyone wants an abortion in cases of severe disability either - which largely they don't but some might.

Plenty of people are against all abortion at any stage and mercy killing (and indeed for plenty suicide is a mortal sin). I have no problems with living in a country where people have all kinds of views, that gays will burn in hell, that the holocaust did not happen or whatever but I want people have choices and to have freedom of expression.

Nerfballs define 'survivable', please.

And also: That's your choice. You do not get to force others to make that same choice. The lives of people already born do not matter less.

@pixiefringe My conscience is just fine, but I’m heartened by your concern for it.

It may infuriate you, but unintelligible it is not. Sex is not merely for reproduction, and any resulting unwanted pregnancy does not mean a woman forfeits her autonomy over her womb. You can argue yourself in circles over the status of the fetus, whether it feels pain, whether a woman should abort or not, but the reality is that women DO and WILL abort with or without your approval, whether abortion is legal or not. The choice isn’t between abortion and birth, it’s between legal or illegal abortion. Maybe you think women deserve to be injured or die as a result of restrictive abortion laws, but thankfully, at least in this country, you’re in the minority.

If you can't love and support a child NO MATTER WHAT then you have no business being a parent

And that’s why I would have an abortion.

Xenia I agree. The key point here is that those of us who are pro choice would not dream of imposing what we believe on others. We would not, for instance, petition for a change in the law that would mandate termination in case of birth defects. Because that would be immoral.

The anti choicers on the other hand seem all too keen to have their views enshrined in law and imposed on the rest of us.

Anyway I don't usually come into these threads because seeing the complete disregard for the sanctity of human life absolutely tears me up inside. Seeing unborn babies spoken about like parasites infuriates me. Seeing people with seared consciences attempting to defend the indefensible is too much to bear

Easy. Don’t have an abortion then. It’s very straightforward, but unless you’re going to support babies if women don’t want them then you’ve got no business pontificating about “the sanctity of life”

We rightly balk at sex being a reason for abortion, we prohibit it even, but that's a bit hypocritical now isn't it? Isn't it abortion for any reason, her body her choice right?

To be fair, you could abort for reasons of sex in the UK before 24 weeks. No one asks your reasons after all. In China they don’t actually allow you to know the gender of your child to try to prevent it, but ofc there are dodgy places where they will secretly tell you, but not all that easy to find.

This is going to get terribly nuanced once prenatal genetic testing gets cheap and you can see more attributes of your baby.

I don't believe there should be any differentiation in the law whether Down Syndrom has been detected before birth or not.

@pointythings I agree. The key point here is that those of us who are pro choice would not dream of imposing what we believe on others. We would not, for instance, petition for a change in the law that would mandate termination in case of birth defects. Because that would be immoral. I wish no one would attack someone else but the reality is prochoice people do sometimes seek to impose their beliefs on others, admittedly not by trying to legally force abortions. I gave an example of the person I worked with objecting to me not having amnio as it would mean they would have to pay taxes to keep my child for life, I'm not sure why they seemed to feel it was a certainty that there would be a problem but that's beside the point. Also my NCT friend who had the exact opposite experience at her work place.

I also had a very unpleasant experience with a doctor who insisted I had to have prenatal tests due to my age, I told him I'd discussed it with the Consultant and I wouldn't be having them. He told me I had to, I had no choice. In the end the midwife had to intervene and ask him to stop. My Consultant on the otherhand discussed it with me, why it might help me to know if there was a problem and a promise that he would in no way try to persuade me on any course of action depending on the result. He listened and respected my choice.

There are intolerant people on both sides. I thought long and hard about my decision and reached my decision, other women come to another decision. Perhaps everyone should respect that.