Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

Yes but some people are saying that fhe potential father should have no say at all and has no right to an opinion.

The father is welcome to express his wishes, but the final decision has to lie with the woman.

For instance, the woman could want to abort and the man could say - please don't, if you have the baby I will take full custody and not require any maintenance from you. That is then an option for the woman to consider - but he cannot force her to take that option. He can only offer it.

In reality the majority of the time it's the man saying abort or I will walk away - many women chose their man, many chose their baby. Its up to the woman to decide what to do - but he cannot and should not be able to force her to terminate her pregnancy.

I understand that it must be very upsetting to have a condition that pregnant women are tested for with the view that it is better that they aborted. I imagine it is like living with the message of 'you shouldn't exist you know'.

I do also empathise with her on those grounds. But ds is such a side spectrum. I actually would be happy to keep a child that was mild - moderately effected with ds. But you don't know if your child will be one of the ones that are health problem free with just some gdd and learning disabilities, or if your child will be one who is in and our of hospital, and has sever health and development problems.

Having seen kids at both ends of the spectrum makes me feel its too much of a gamble. Even having a mildly affected child is no walk in the park.

@Woolybear It's Down Syndrome. Not Down(s) Syndrome. Your comments are quite ignorant, you clearly haven't met many yourself. Almost all children/adults with Down Syndrome will require at least a part-time carer even if they are high functioning to live on their own or in a group care home. Almost all have heart defects. As well as gastrointestinal problems and eyesight problems. Your comments are very unrealistic and fanciful.

@MintyMabel She is an exceptional child, and pretty much anyone who meets her says the same thing. Her disability does not define nor confine her.
With all respect and sensitivity, of course people are going to say that about a child with a disability. I have yet to come across a child with a disability (particularly cognitive/intellectual) who hasn't been called 'adorable', 'exceptional', 'loving', 'all heart', 'zest for life.full of life', 'sweet' and the most common one (which I find makes it sound like they are talking about a puppy or kitten so a bit patronising) - 'cute'. etc etc. What else would one say? That is being a polite person in a civilised society. It's not like they would say the opposite is it.

@Timekeeper1

It was a typing error and how ignorant are you to make that judgement! I have met many people with Down Syndrome and have many friends with children with Down Syndrome as I have a teenage child myself with DS.

@Lardlizard Thank you for stating the TRUTH, it does ruin many people's lives, I've had it said to me personally by a sibling of a DS. There is no easy way to say it delicately, and you just stating plain common sense and truth. Those who refuse to see the facts outside of their unrealistic bubble will try to silence you.

@Woolybear Then you would know that your screed about clubs, football etc is absolutely unrealistic.

And of course we see the good in our children as MintyMabel does because we know their personalities. My child is well rounded, fun, fit has had health problems has moods and strops just like any other teenager and he has siblings and I would have to say he’s just like them with his own personality and quirks. I don’t like it either when people say “oh aren’t they loving” etc because he’s not - only to those closest to him in family, he does not like random people fussing over him, hugging him and coming into his personal space just like anyone else.

@Timekeeper1

Actually my son plays football once a week, goes abseiling, rock climbing, canoeing etc. There was a an after school club at his college.
He has not ruined my life, if anything he has enhanced it!

@bathsh3ba Life does not begin at conception. A POTENTIAL life, is not an actual life. At conception, it is a blastocyst with no more awareness than an amoeba. It is not until the third trimester that the foetus even has a brain stem or nervous system, so until then it cannot feel pain, it is not aware of it's existence. It is no more sentient than a table or chair. To ascribe personhood and rights to a blastocyst or foetus over the ACTUAL BORN HUMAN BEING is absolutely disgusting imo at shows a lack of respect for human beings that you think something with the sentience of wood should take precedence over a born actual living woman who has to be the host to it inside of her, have her body imposed upon. To actually think a woman, an actual existing human being should be equal (or lesser, is the impression I get) to something with no sentience or nervous system is abhorrent and inhuman.

Likewise, the father has zero say. Why? Because 5 mins of pleasure and he can take off, he does not have to go through the pregnancy. It is the WOMAN who has to face and experience: loss of income/job, weight gain, back aches, severe and debilitating nausea, gestational diabetes, nose bleeds, high blood pressure, fluid on organs etc etc. And then go through childbirth which is still a risk and though extremely rare, women still die through childbirth in this day. It is her body that has to go through that, for 9 months. Until the man has to endure all of that, it gets absolutely no say whatsoever. The person who has to risk their life, is the one who has the say.

The simple fact is, the foetus does not matter, not when the actual existing woman is facing a medical risk to herself. Something born and sentient matters far more than a blastocyst or something with the sentience of lounge chair. This is basic common sense. It is also moral sense. To think otherwise, is to show zero respect for born human life, and to assign women as mere slave incubators, with no more rights than battery hens. So to conclude, it is morally repugnant to suggest life begins at conception even though it has the sentience of an inanimate of object, and disregard the human rights, and dignity of the born, actual, real, existing human being, the woman.

@Woolybear I have thought for a bit about how to word this, but, something tells me by the 'absolute' tone of your posts that your other children, his siblings, know they would never be able to come to you and have an honest heart to heart about how they feel about their situation/sibling. If your strongly worded posts aren't as I suspect, a protesting too much - almost convincing yourself how great it is and romanticising it, then I feel for his siblings, because I think they know they can never come to you with their thoughts and feelings. You've made it clear you would be horrified at any negative straighttalk from them. My heart goes out to them.

He has not ruined my life, if anything he has enhanced it!

But that's the point. Disability is a massive spectrum. And we all deal with having a disabled child differently. For all the children that enhance people's lives - there are an equal amount that will (for want of a better word) ruin peoples lives.

For me I never wanted a disabled child. I was 100% sure I would abort on grounds of disability. I'm just not the caring type. If I had been I would have worked in a hospital, not finance.
But the option was taken away from me. And now I'm a carer to a proudly disabled child. I'm not happy, and I probably never will accept it and he will more than likely end up in care evetually. He has not enhanced my life he has ristricted it and the only way I can get back to living to find alternative care and respite for him. And as long as I'm caring for him I will have no independence, I am reliant on my husband or the state for finance and support.

Just because some disabled children are great to have, it doesn't mean the option of whether to have a disabled child or not should be limited for all women. Because some of us can handle more than others and some disabilities are more restrictive and more hard to manage than others.

I thought it was Down's syndrome. It certainly was in the 60s when my sister was born with it. The NHS seem to call it down's syndrome.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/downs-syndrome/ It was named after Dr Down surely? "English physician John Langdon Down first described Down syndrome in 1862".

I understand that it must be very upsetting to have a condition that pregnant women are tested for with the view that it is better that they aborted. I imagine it is like living with the message of 'you shouldn't exist you know'. That is very true, when I was pregnant at nearly 40 someone I worked with asked when I was having amnio. I said I wasn't, my choice so I'm not debating that. The reply was, "That's fucking great isn't it, so us taxpayers are going to be saddled with keeping them for the rest of their life." I was gob smacked and was close to tears, the other woman I shared an office with was disabled, won't go into details but would definitely have been something her mother could have got an abortion for. She said, "He wants me dead." I said, "No he wants my baby dead." We both had a little cry.

I was telling my NCT group about it and one of the other mums, also 40ish, said she was the opposite. She'd asked for time off work as she was having amnio, her line manager said "OK but don't let anyone know as you'll get alot of grief about it."

So many opinionated people telling pregnant women what to do. Both sides as bad as each other from what I can see.

It looks like the US might use down syndrome more but they are wrong. It has always been down's syndrome in the UK since the 1800s

What else would one say? That is being a polite person in a civilised society. It's not like they would say the opposite is it.

Not all life is worth living. Especially when it takes away the ability to live a normal life from the parents and siblings.

These comments are vile and unnecessary. You clearly have some very stigmatising and disturbed views on disabled people, but why you would feel the need to express such needlessly inflammatory comments on a thread with several parents is beyond me. It's totally devoid of basic empathy.

I agree with you about abortion, and I have written on here about how difficult it was at times growing up with my severely ASD DB, but honestly you discredit our side of the argument with such nasty, leering views.

*You know what I see? When many men 'have a say'?

Women on MN being pressurised by men having their say and trying to persuade them to abort foetuses they don't want to pay towards or commit to.

Women bringing up disabled children as single parents because the fathers (ones that up until that point ) couldn't cope or didn't want to cope.*

Exactly YinMnBlue. What people like bathsh3ba is that if 'men get a say' if the woman keeps the child, that means he also 'gets a say' if she wants to keep it, but he wants her to terminate. Going by that standard, the man should be able to pressure the woman to abort, against her will.

People who advocate for 'the father to have a say' simply don't even consider that that may mean her being forced to abort.

Not all life is worth living. Especially when it takes away the ability to live a normal life from the parents and siblings.

I have a disabled child and I agree with this 100%. Disability is a spectrum. Many lead painful miserable lives and the only time the rest of the family can get some enjoyment from life is when away from them.

@Gimmecaffeine Are you serious? All I did was tell the truth. I think it is people like you who while on some level acknowledge the truth of what is said but is outraged at it being said out loud, that try to silence people and make ordinary facts of life and human emotions taboo, that causes the most damage.

@Gimmecaffeine How do you disagree with this statement, do you think it's not true to state that people are polite and wouldn't knowingly say something to hurt someone? What else would one say? That is being a polite person in a civilised society. It's not like they would say the opposite is it.

How do you disagree with this statement, Not all life is worth living. Especially when it takes away the ability to live a normal life from the parents and siblings. Do you honestly think all life, so matter how full of pain and misery for the person, is worth living? I suppose you are against euthanasia then? And do you honestly think it isn't just a fact of life to say someone's parent and/or siblings would burdened? Are you honestly saying that?

If you genuinely think what I said was vile, and no just the plain blatantly obvious and common truth, then you will be able to explain how, no?

Interestingly, 111 selective reductions were performed in the same year, which is almost half of the number of late abortions, andnthe vast majority of these were in women who had had IVF to become pregnant

This must be really emotionally difficult. I guess they would choose the ones that have the most likelihood to survive, hopefully there is a clear choice in that sense.

I 100% agree that some lives are not worth living. I come at this from the complete opposite end of the spectrum, that is to say the last year of my dad's life. He had Parkinson's dementia. By the last year he was non-verbal, immobile and incontinent. He had to be spoon fed. And anyone thinking he wasn't distressed or aware had only to look at him.

He was in the Netherlands and was offered euthanasia at a time when he still had capacity to make that decision - he said no, he lived to regret that and express that regret.

There is nothing at all abhorrent about stating that some lives are not worth living. It's the simple truth.

@Timekeeper1
My Other child/children can talk to me about everything and anything and I’m sure that they would also say their lives had been enhanced with the experiences and the people they have made from all sorts of backgrounds and with all sorts of disabilities. I’m also sure it has helped them become the emphatic, well rounded and popular people they are.
I know there are parents who have a very difficult time with their child with disabilities and I do not “romanticise” having a child with disabilities.
I find your comments on this subject especially towards me offensive and I’d like to know what makes you an expert!!

Yes, people like Gimmecaffeine cause more harm than they realise with their 'outrage' at people simply stating the truth and attempts to silence people therefore making plain common sense and plain old-fashioned truth a taboo. We cannot have a rational debate on this when people are going around trying to silence truth-tellers. There is nothing even remotely vile in what I said, in fact, I have tried at all times to think how I am wording things. I put thought into what I'm saying and how I say it. We should never let wreckers try to silence, undermine or make taboo the discussion of basic facts.