Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

Yin well if you feel your child ruined your life then...

It's not easy having a disabled DC, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But another poster articulated it beautifully. 'Ruined' is very emotive and if I have to be honest, a parent who feels that their child has ruined their life I would be worried that the parent would, unintentionally, mistreat their DC or their feelings will reflect in the way they treat them. Imaging having a parent who thought you have ruined their life. It's horrible.

A child would notice this, they would see it in your body language, your harsh tones, hiding them away and the lack of stimulation.

I think it's sad.

Of course, all family members love that seriously disabled member. But they would readily agree that their lives are more than ‘challenged’, I have a disabled child. I fight discrimination against disabled people. I have close friends and colleagues who are disabled but it is quite simply dishonest not to discuss the implications for some extreme conditions, for the disabled person and their nearest and dearest.

Earlier in the thread I have said aspects of my childhood were traumatic. They were, and the list you have given is not alien to me. But my life is not ruined.

I am utterly opposed to the law and women's rights changing, and I have not said we should not discuss how difficult having a disabled family member can be, quite the contrary. But saying siblings lives could be 'ruined' was too much and I can understand why a parent reading it might be disturbed by this, especially as it seemed to be not based on anything a sibling had actually said themselves.

I also think it's a bit much to say having a disabled sibling ruins your life.

If my daughter grew up to feel her life was ruined for having her disabled brother in it - I would not blame him but blame myself. Having a disabled sibling can be difficult and restrictive and hard - but I like to think my daughters life will still be worth living. I will never neglect my daughter because of my son. If it came to that my son would have to go into care. I think the issue is a parent prioritising the disabled child at any cost over the typical sibling.

I remember a lady that went on loose women, because she tried to comfort someone who was in a difficult situation, the person she was trying to comfort had been given an antenatal diagnosis of ds, and the lady that tried to comfort her by saying. As much as she loved her son, if she had had the chance to not have him, she wouldn’t have
And she said how hard her life was, how her dh didn’t really get it, how she did the boil of the work, her ds was non verbal

And she got destroyed for simply being honest, about her experience and her life
Felt so sorry for her
So I think it’s quite a taboo even in this day and age for the parents to be truly open n honest
Bit if we did stil sugar coating it, peopel could egg make support with respite and more money they desperately need

Bulk not boil

Here

The image of disability we are shown and the reality for many are 2 very different things.

I still find it hard to see the "acceptable" disabled children on TV - because my son is so far from that. But people don't want to see kids like my son, they don't want to know the reality. They just want the heart warming shit. Somone on this thread told me I was disgusting because I said I would terminate my son if I could go back.

The fact is the vast majority of disabled pregnancies are terminated. Most parents I know, myself included didn't know until birth. I wouldn't wish I child like my ds on anyone. If we can save just a few families from the pain of disability by letting terminations go ahead until term - then that is a good thing. My sons condition is genetic but it is rare. I hope in the future all genetic syndromes can be tested for as standard in pregnancy.

GimmeCaffeine Fair enough. And it is a testament to what I see many families make a strength of: “just getting in with it” that you have in mind the extent to which parents (Mums?) protect all family members and what it can take to do that.

I also think that siblings as much as disabled children are let down by the threadbare support services. Cancelled respite, the constant bureaucracy and fighting for payments, appointments, and on and on... The pressure is not all down to the disability.

Even amongst significant chaos Young carers develop maturity, Resilience, empathy and understanding. That is a testament to parents too.

Sorry my last pet was ment to say, if we did stop sugar coating it, we can make sure people get the help and support they need which I see as mainly respite care and a lot of extra money
They shouldn’t not be struggling to pay bills

The sibling argument is so difficult. Where a person needs lifelong care, the siblings do often end up dealing with the consequences of a choice made by their parents. They ate often obliged or expected to pick up the slack or take over completely in situations where parents can no longer cope due to their own health. On the other hand though, life is unpredictable and anyone born healthy could become disabled and a sibling ends up in the same situation anyway. I don't know how I would feel in that situation.

Here feel so bad for her

Totally agree with @HeatherIV about the sugar coating. I used to work with children who have SN and I thought I knew it all. I had no idea what it would be like to parent a disabled child until I had one.

Many disabilities are on a spectrum and there are various degrees of severity. Also many disabilities can seem minor but come with additional problems. My son was born with a cleft lip which can seem minor and easily fixable. You can barely see the scar now but his cleft has come with all kinds of other problems with his brain, teeth, hearing, speech etc etc. He has had over 20 operations with more to go. Yes, he is gorgeous, loving and all the rest of it but he has also suffered. I love him so much and never considered having a termination with him but I think women need to be able to choose.

which I see as mainly respite care and a lot of extra money

For us money is not the problem. We have a big pot of money from social services. But there are no people to provide the services. No carers, no Foster families, no respite facilities.

People just don't want to look after a disabled child. Maybe all these people bleeting on about how wonderful disabled children are and how termination on disability should be reduced would be better spending their time fostering or working as carers. But no, they don't actually want to get close to a disabled child. They might get dribbled on or have to change a nappy.

Lard I've read her story. I think coming from a parent who has disabled DC and that parent said something like that, I would think ok fair enough, because it isn't easy. But coming from someone who doesn't have a disabled DC and saying something like "ruin" is a quite insensitive.

What I will say though, and it has been clinically proven, there are different stages in the grieving process until that person gets into the equilibrium phase and they accept their predicament.... for some people, they stay in the grieving process for many years and they reach acceptance... for some people, they never really stop grieving and I'm wondering if this what is going on with the lady in the article, she even said along the lines of "I've never really accepted... my husband is fine because he doesn't do what ifs".

It has been clinically proven, particularly with deaf children and hearing parents, and people who have cancer... the people who go through the grieving process much quicker, into acceptance etc... their deaf child or the cancer patients prognosis is much higher, the parents or cancer patient who are stuck in the grieving progress prognosis for them is much lower.... not always mind you.

Saying all that, I think women have the right to choose what they want to do with their own body. But, I'm sorry, I can't comprehend termination at 40 weeks no... if they allowed that then I would consider whether they were thinking about the mothers mental health and if they were willing to put additional funds for counselling.

HeatherIV - you have made a good point. It is horrible how the reality of the necessary care is abhorent for most people but this care is indeed very hard to find.

Some of the people who have undoubetly suffered most during lockdown are the disabled and their carers.

He has had over 20 operations with more to go.

Same here...for a different condition.

I look at the posts by MN-ers frantic that their little one is having a one-off minor op for grommets or a simple plate for a fracture, or such like, but they are in tears, anxious, the Dad has to go with the child for the anaesthetic...I really do sympathise, and have often given the kind of info that I think helps...but good lord....when your child has multiple surgeries, goes through long periods of significant pain...as a way of life...

And you don't get immune to it. I always found the moment that they wheel your unconscious child away on a trolley made me well up and cry. That lasted for every op until they were 18 and I was no longer allowed to go down to the holding bay, or into recovery.

I wouldn't have terminated my Dc for the condition in question, but I would much rather have a Dc who does not have to endure this to get by.

I know I'm in the minority but I'm uncomfortable with any abortion but particularly with abortions on the grounds of a disability which may vary in terms of severity. I think abortion should be legal under certain circumstances but more tightly controlled.

I completely disagree with those who say it's the woman's body and therefore her choice alone. Firstly I believe life begins at conception so I think the foetus's rights need to be considered. Secondly the father has rights too. That's three people's rights that need to be balanced - one person shouldn't get to call the shots.

There may be circumstances where abortion is the best option for all three or the majority of the three. There may be situations where one person's rights are given more precedence for good reason. But I don't believe it should be a blanket 'my body my choice' either and foetuses being aborted because they are Downs or because 'now is not the right time' just make me feel sick...

@bathsh3ba, sorry but your arguments have all been made before and have been dismissed. The woman who is pregnant is a human being in her own right with full bodily autonomy. Any decision to take the right of legal abortion away from her leads to suicide or backstreet abortion. It does not lead to women bringing up those children happily. If you have that silly belief, that a woman will think 'oh well' and invest the next 18 years of her life to a baby that she doesn't want then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Babies are still abandoned, killed at birth, given up for adoption. This would increase. Women with money would just go for a city break to another country where abortion is legal. Women with no resources would use methods found on google.

I completely disagree with those who say it's the woman's body and therefore her choice alone. Firstly I believe life begins at conception so I think the foetus's rights need to be considered. Secondly the father has rights too. That's three people's rights that need to be balanced - one person shouldn't get to call the shots.

The father can be heard, but someone needs to be a decision maker.

If you say the father or foetus have rights, by necessity you take away rights from the pregnant woman. So a 10wk pregnancy has a right to life, how do you protect this life without horrifically taking away the woman's liberty?

@growinggreyer two wrongs don't make a right. I think those living in cloud cuckoo land are those who twist the truth to say a foetus doesn't matter. We won't agree, I know I'm in the minority but that doesn't automatically make me wrong.

No, a fetus doesn’t matter when it’s at odds with the woman carrying it. Whether it’s alive or not is besides the point, we don’t force anyone to sacrifice their bodily autonomy for the benefit of another. Hell, we don’t even infringe on the bodily autonomy of corpses for the benefit of the living.

The father doesn’t get a say because it’s not his body doing the work. If he was the one with the womb carrying the fetus then it would be up to him, until then he doesn’t get to decided

The reality is that women have abortions whether they’re legal or not. Illegal abortion is one of the leading causes of death of women worldwide, in countries where it is illegal. That’s the reality of ‘pro life’ laws.

I agree @bathsh3ba

I think somebody mentioned down thread about scoring because of a cleft lip up until birth. Serious disabilities I can accept as a sad reality but things like this?

And I can absolutely think of reasons a woman would abort a full term healthy baby, even if a child once planned. It's hardly unthinkable, not everyone loves their born children let alone their fetuses. Don't get why anyone would deny this is possible.

Agree with everything LardLizard has said.
My disabled child has ruined my life. My relationship. My career prospects. Friendships. Gone.
I had an abortion as well when my child was 5 because I wouldn't have this responsibility put on another child of mine.
I really wish they had tests for autism in pregnancy back then. Hopefully they will soon. It's no life to live at the severe end.

What does that even mean, two wrongs don't make a right? One wrong doesn't make a right, either. If a woman is pregnant and no happy then she has a choice to end the pregnancy. You want to take that choice away. She is now unhappy and forced into giving birth. Can you see that you have taken away her bodily autonomy?

I'm saying that I disagree it is all about her rights and that there are worse things than giving birth to a baby you don't want. We normalise abortion too much. It is taking away a foetus's life, no matter how you dress it up. And you have to be able to justify that with something stronger than that the mum doesn't want to have a baby or 'bodily autonomy'. In my opinion. If you disagree, fair enough.