Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

@tempnamechange25 sending love to you

Down's syndrome people live perfectly happy and full lives .

See I think this is too simplistic. Some people with downs syndrome live happy and full lives but you cannot possibly know if your child would be one of them until they begin to grow up, what if they wont live a happy and full life?

@SonEtLumiere this is why the law can't be changed and requires doctors to agree that a woman should have an abortion. This is also why in some areas of England women aren't told the sex of the fetus on tests/scans.

@bumbleymummy There is only so early you can do testing, no matter how science is advanced. It is a fact of life that even with technology, we cannot often know earlier enough. That is reason or justification for cutting the abortion limit. As I said, it is just plain common sense that more time is needed to assess for disabilities, and there is only so early it can be done. Ordinary abortions simply cannot be compared to abortions for disability/health reasons. That's just common sense, and nothing will change that.

@bumbleymummy

But there are reasons for that that is not solely to do with the fact they have Downs but more to do with diagnostics and when information is made available and the process for the woman. I didn't miss the point, I mentioned it specifically in my post.
Differences is not the same as discrimination. DS children have more medical care than healthy children. That's not discrimination against healthy children - the circumstances are different. As they are in pregnancy.
Exactly equal treatment would be the same medical care/educational opportunities etc for every single child no matter the circumstances and that would be discriminatory!

Agreed TinySleepThief it is a very idealistic and naive attitude. And so untrue. No one with DS lives a completely normal fulfilling life. They will all need, even at the basic minimum, an independent living Carer.

I am on leaving the law alone side but I can see the position of those either against all abortions, of those who think like begins at conception, those who think life begins at 23 weeks and those who think no matter how bad the disability the position should be the same for all babies.

It is very hard to change English abortion law and you have to have almost a death wish if you are a politician to propose it. It never goes well and gets people on both sides up in arms.

An under developed hand?!
But it's not up to me or anyone else to decide what's right for others and their lives. If she doesn't want an imperfect child then that's her choice
That’s absolutely nuts.

Why? So you would force your morals on someone else? No one is saying you have to abort a child with a mild deformaty. What we are saying is it's up to the individual to decide what's right for them.

You or I may not abort a baby for having a mildly deformed hand, but some would, and that right should not be taken away from them.

What if you forced them to have that child and they never loved that child fully, the child grew up knowing siblings were favored, maybe the parent was cruel and unsupportive to the child. How is that a better outcome for the child then a termination?

We all have a different moral compass when it comes to abortion. Forcing individuals to act in line with your personal morals will only lead to negative outcomes for mothers and children. It's better to just say any gestation for any reason, then let the individual decide. You can judge them if you like, but you shouldn't be able to stop them.

I've had a TFMR. It's not a decision anyone takes lightly. My baby was very poorly and would have had no or little quality of life, had they even survived.
We didn't get a proper diagnosis until 22 weeks so we were very close to the point where people are calling for abortions to be cut off. I think its horrendous that people would take the choice away from women and families, especially when disabilities are very, very hard to accurately diagnose (especially the severity) before birth.

I don't think the law should be changed because it would be a slippery slope to more restrictions on abortion. I don't know Heidi but I do know people in her family and they are a campaigning family for many causes, so it isn't so unusual that she is speaking out against something she disagrees with (for posters who wondered who was behind her campaign). Some family members are animal rights and fracking activists, and trade unionists. It is clearly a politically aware family.

@TinySleepThief We don’t know if any of our children will have happy and full lives or even if they‘ll be healthy throughout their lives.

I also don't agree with the term "forced birth" . If you are pregnant you will give birth at some point . It's a natural consequence of being pregnant. It is not forced. I wish there was a better term for it.

The law is fine as it is. This young woman might be high functioning but many are not and nobody should be forced to have a child with disabilities.

We don’t know if any of our children will have happy and full lives or even if they‘ll be healthy throughout their lives.

No but we DO know (or least can know if tests are done) that a child will have a severe lifelong disability. Again, you are attempting to compare the birth of an unknown/otherwise healthy child, to one who has a severe disability detected before birth. No comparison between the two.

If you are pregnant you will give birth at some point. It's a natural consequence of being pregnant

Not always

It is not forced. I wish there was a better term for it

I suppose for me not allowing a woman to end a pregnancy is forcing her to give birth, it’s the logical conclusion!

We don’t know if any of our children will have happy and full lives or even if they‘ll be healthy throughout their lives.

Of course we dont but its surely obvious this is much less likely if a severe condition or disability is detected in a foetus.

Sorry Marie of course some pregnancies end in a miscarriage. I should have included that.

Abbccc if you want to terminate but are not allowed to, then that is a forced birth. It is by definition a forced birth. Or incubatorial slavery, treating a woman as no more than a battery hen for a forced birth. It all amounts to the same thing regardless of term used though. Forcing a woman to go through 9 months of pregnancy (and the associated risks to her health/finances etc) against her will.

My son got diagnosed with excess fluid on the brain at 34 weeks. Most likely cause with chromosome issues. Initial tests for downs etc came back clear within 48 hours but other tests would take 10 days. I was given option to terminate on discovery at 34 weeks and again at 35 weeks when scan showed damage to brain. I chose not to and son was born at 35 w 6d. It wasnt chromosome issues but was a bleed in brain causing hydrocephalus. He is 8 weeks old today and has spent half that time in hospital. He had a shunt fitted last week but got an infection so it was removed yesterday and an external drain fitted temporarily. I love my son but im not gonna lie this is really hard. There are plenty times when i can see hes in pain and suffering where i think i made a selfish choice and am inflicting this all on him because i didnt want to terminate so late. Had it been discovered at say 20 weeks chances are i would have.

No one terminates late without good reason and to give birth to a dead baby is not an easy decision. Let the parents and doctors make the choice not lawyers.

It's so rare to have late abortions for medical reasons. I support a woman's right to choose.

@Pixiefringe No 'babies' are being killed in the womb. It is NOT a baby! Cake batter is not a cake. An acorn is not an oak tree. At the stage most terminations are performed, the blastocyst has no brain stem or nervous system. I think your attitude is abhorrent, and you are suggesting women should be held as incubator slaves against their will. That is beyond inhuman and abhorrent. Abortions are a medical service and much needed, and always will be.

Abbccc

@SoloMummy Viability is not reached until 23 weeks. So well after the cut-off date you suggest.

I think changing the law would be dreadful actually, as much as I truly sympathise with those whose lives are rocked and changed irrevocably by having a child with a disability. Either you believe that a woman has a choice or you don't. Just because you might make a one choice doesn't mean you can then choose for another woman.

There are other conditions that can be and are just as disabling as Downs
Syndrome that cannot be screened for. Some children (for example) with autism at the extreme end of the spectrum will never lead independent adult lives and have a host of other linked health conditions. You can't screen for that. If you get a child with autism, you get one and that's that.

I have a child with high functioning autism and a Pathological Demand Avoidance profile. We're really fortunate that hers is 'just' some social and behavioural issues and she will be able to function independently as an adult with the right support throughout childhood and education. She is still classed as having a disability worthy of receiving mid-rate DLA and a Carers Allowance for me as well as having an EHCP at just four years old.

However, even with 'just' HF ASD, life is really damn hard. Her condition severely impacts on our whole family (sibling included), our relationship as parents, and I wonder how on earth we'd cope if we had a child who had much more profound needs as many parents do. I would still have my daughter either way, even if she was even on the more extreme end of the spectrum if I'd have known beforehand. However some women wouldn't, and I cannot and will not condemn them for that choice. It's theirs, not mine.

@TinySleepThief That was in response to the idea that we don’t know if someone with Down’s will live a fulfilling life or not- which we know is possible.

@Abbccc Totally agree wrt ‘forced birth’. Silly emotive language.