Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

As I said above, with DS there is ALWAYS some level of intellectual disability, and at least some carer involved. Regardless of the spectrum, with DS there is always an intellectual disability, so the 'spectrum' argument is null and void because even at best, the child will need to have a carer helping them to live independently. So I don't think it's provocative advocating termination, in deed and in fact I think it is provocative advocating they be born. I could understand DS births in the '50s and '60s, but not in 2020. Imo it is heartless and selfish and is a slap in the face to scientists that invented a method to test for these things to either eradicate/or prevent the births. I'm not sure how to word it, but to me it's like those who choose not to vaccinate. It is a slap in the face to medical progress.

I feel like I'm missing something and would be grateful for opinions. I find it hard to see the relevance of the 'spectrum' of Downs in challenges to abortion law. People say as someone with relatively mild Downs it must be hard to know others who could have been like you and lived a good quality life were aborted, but I don't fully connect with this. I don't suffer from a genetic condition and am healthy as far as I know and happy in my life and loads of people 'like me' are aborted I don't find that personally difficult.
Maybe you abort because you don't feel you can raise a child alone - in theory you could meet the love of your life who's willing to help you raise that child in 6 months time. Maybe you don't feel you have the finances - you could have a lottery win or that child could grow up to sell an internet company for millions and 15 and solve all your mail net problems. Maybe you're 15 and don't think you could cope but actually it would have all worked out ok Every foetus could be this or that but women make the best choice they can with the info they have at the time whether the foetus has a genetic condition or not. I don't see the discrimination. Some women continue pregnancies others wouldn't and it are supported, and vice versa. It's surely not about a value placed on the foetus but about the circumstances of the woman.
I know Heidi is arguing the 'discrimination' is in the gestation differences but differences in themeselves aren't discrimination. There are reasons for these differences that have nothing to do with the baby just having an extra chromosome.
If you could abort Down Syndrome foetuses and not 'healthy' ones then there is an ethical arguement for discrimination against Downs but while you can terminate healthy pregnancies surely there isnt? Am I being totally blind or ignorant? What am I missing?!

where do you draw the line? Is missing a finger a disability? Underdeveloped legs? Any genetic abnormality?

It's should be up to the individual to decide. I've seen people on here discuss aborting due to a under developed hand. I was pretty shocked. I wish my ds just had a little hand. But it's not up to me or anyone else to decide what's right for others and their lives. If she doesn't want an imperfect child then that's her choice. If someone else wants to keep a profoundly disabled child then again that's their choice. No one should be dictating to others, but you have to accept not everyone will agree with your choices.

As others have said if we had a true pro choice stance, no one would actually abort in the last 2 months without a fucking good reason. And of they did chose to abort at 6/7 months plus for a laugh or a whatever, then we probably don't want them raising kids.

An under developed hand?!
But it's not up to me or anyone else to decide what's right for others and their lives. If she doesn't want an imperfect child then that's her choice
That’s absolutely nuts.

@SoloMummy Tests for Down Syndrome often are not definitive until week 22.

18-19 weeks when I believe foetuses have survived.

No foetuses have survived before the 22nd week.

So many people missing the point here. She is not saying that you shouldn’t be able to have an abortion for disabilities - just that the limit should be 24 weeks for all pregnancies rather than allowing late term abortion for things like Down’s syndrome which is clearly making a distinction between disabled and non-disabled babies and saying that one has more rights than the other.

Most people are pro-choice up to a limit anyway - usually 24 weeks in the UK because that’s what the law says. This is not changing that law for women. You can be pro-choice and support the idea of having the limit apply to pregnancies.

I support the woman's freedom to choose for any reason

@Schrodingerspeanutbuttersandw

“ If you could abort Down Syndrome foetuses and not 'healthy' ones then there is an ethical arguement for discrimination against Downs but while you can terminate healthy pregnancies surely there isnt? Am I being totally blind or ignorant? What am I missing?!”

The current limit for abortion for healthy pregnancies is 24 weeks - there is no limit if the baby has Down’s syndrome. So you can abort a baby with Down’s at a stage when you couldn’t abort an otherwise healthy baby. She wants the limit to be the same for both so babies with Down syndrome don’t have fewer rights than those without.

I support the woman's freedom to choose for any reason
What if it’s because she’s pregnant with a girl but wants a son? Or vice versa?

@bumbleymummy The point is, even with modern technology, many disabilities are not even known of later, hence why there necessarily has to be a difference. Out of necessity. You cannot compare ordinary abortion with abortion due to disability/medical reasons. If you want an abortion regardless, you would do it early. But if it is a wanted pregnancy, you will continue and have all the medical tests, a few that cannot be done until week 20/22. Extra time to abort due to disability exists BECAUSE it takes so long to know, time for results to come back, etc. Common sense tells one that is why the limit is different, and necessarily is different. Because nobody aborts at that late stage unless it's a medical/disability reason.

So many people missing the point here

No ones missing that point. There are practical reasons why 24 weeks doesn’t work for disabilities, to do with getting a diagnosis in time.

If people want equality, then get rid of the limit for all pregnancies.

@bumbleymummy "So you can abort a baby with Down’s at a stage when you couldn’t abort an otherwise healthy baby."

And that is how it should be! Because the extra time is NEEDED! Where as with 'an otherwise healthy' abortion, no testing is needed or waited on. Hence why the difference. Very straightforward. I would have thought it was obvious why.

Personally I wouldn't abort a baby with Down syndrome. However there are many fetal defects that are 1000 times more serious than that. Defects that mean the baby would never survive outside the womb or would live just a couple of days.

Not only that, but there are other reasons why people would consider abortion.

pro choice is exactly what it says

Taking away choice isn’t pro choice it’s settling limitations on choice

It’s a very emotive subject it’s very difficult for many to accept that some women for what ever reason will choose to have a late termination (the numbers are very very low)

But either you support their choice or you don’t

The law allows this

@JasHarts Aborting for sex reasons isn't allowed, and never has been. It's a slippery slope fallacy. That's all.

@roarfeckingroar That’s great. What are your feelings about her campaign which has nothing to do with changing the a woman’s right to have an abortion up to 24 weeks.

I want it to be like this, but it also requires us to support those who abort on the basis of the foetus’ sex

I don’t understand this point. If people want to abort on sex grounds, there’s very little can be done to stop this, it’s possible under current law.

Are you saying you want to reduce the term abortion should he available within?

It is a woman's choice !
Me personally I wouldn't abort on a disability but you don't always know how disabled a child is .
I have a disabled child not downs so maybe I'm biased.
I've met many downs children and adults and they are amazing . So many are actors now too .
I think it a great shame that a woman who really wanted the child then terminated due to disability but again it's choice .
I suppose the 24 week rule should apply whatever the disability unless life affecting . Down's syndrome people live perfectly happy and full lives .

@Timekeeper1 I know it’s not allowed but I was responding to a comment that says that abortion should be allowed for any reason

Its forced birth if you give birth to an alive baby or an aborted one. you still have to give birth you cant have a d and c when the baby is passed a certain point.

@Timekeeper1 Again, that’s an argument for better and earlier testing - not later abortions. Why is no one arguing for that? Surely it would be better for all concerned?

@LaurieMarlow yes, they are. People are making the general abortion-rights arguments for healthy pregnancies to 24 weeks without realising that she’s not campaigning to change any of that.

I had spontaneous labour at 24 weeks. The baby came out still breathing but shortly died a few hours later. I was shocked at how much he looked like a baby! (Size wise etc)

When I looked at him, it was visible that their were problems. 2 club foots. Both hands only hand thumbs and pinky fingers. He had a cleft. His ears were on level with his jaw. And he had a swollen lump next to his heart.

I don't have a clue how they did not pick this up at the scan 1 week earlier ! It still saddens me to this day, but I find comfort in the fact that God took the decision away from me, because if I knew this? I would have aborted yes.