Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

@Timekeeper1 We are discussing post 24 week abortion. It’s very obviously a baby at that point, not a bundle of cells. It’s quite telling when people have to detach themselves from the reality of a situation in order to support it.

Totally agree wrt ‘forced birth’. Silly emotive language

That’s the only example of “silly emotive language” on the thread? Why is that the one you’ve chosen to pick up on?

The problem with a blanket ban at 24 weeks is that the most heartrending and complex cases where the birth defects are the most severe are exactly the ones that will end in a forced birth, because there won't have been time for proper testing and diagnosis. My friend whom I mentioned upthread had her TFMR at 28 weeks - and there was no way it could have been done sooner. Her baby would have died at birth. That is the simple practical reason why the law should either not be changed at all, or should be levelled up rather than down.

Why? So you would force your morals on someone else? No one is saying you have to abort a child with a mild deformaty. What we are saying is it's up to the individual to decide what's right for them
Because the idea of only wanting to give birth to ‘perfect’ babies is wrong. Children with an underdeveloped hand will live a full, healthy life. What those parents wouldn’t want to deal with is the aesthetic of the deformity and the looks from others.
At some point you do have to judge people and have some moral reasoning otherwise we lose all morality.

@bumbleymummy That was in response to the idea that we don’t know if someone with Down’s will live a fulfilling life or not- which we know is possible.

And we know that is NOT possible.

@bumbleymummy We are discussing post 24 week abortion. It’s very obviously a baby at that point, not a bundle of cells.

So what? We are discussing DISABILITY. Not whether it is just a bundle of cells. If a foetus has a severe disability and is found at 24 weeks, then it should be permitted to be terminated. I'm not sure what point you think you are making, but you seem confused. If it has a disability at 24 weeks, or 12 weeks, or 31 weeks, then an abortion is needed.

@Timekeeper1 which is the same situation for all children

I suppose when we have a test where you pee on a stick at 4 weeks pregnant and it diagnoses disabilities as accurately as it does pregnancy and can be confirmed by an early scan, then I would support looking into equalising the gestational ages for those disabilities.
Until then I don't think it's discriminatory to treat healthy pregnancies and pregnancies with foetal abnormalities differently as they are different.
And again I don't think spectrum of severity has anything to do with it. You can legally abort or not abort perfectly healthy foetuses.
For example some young/single/struggling mothers have really positive experiences of continuing a pregnancy and I think it's important their stories are heard so people know they are possible, but I don't see those mother's campaigning to reduce abortion rights for other young/single/struggling mothers because they happened to have a good outcome. I think it should be the same for disabilities. Use your voice if it's important to you to raise awareness and show a positive outcome as a possibility, but don't try to reduce other's choices based on that.

That was in response to the idea that we don’t know if someone with Down’s will live a fulfilling life or not- which we know is possible.

For some it's possible but for many others its not, it's a lottery and you cannot know which side a child may fall on until they are growing up by which point it's too late to do anything if they fall on the not possible side.

The problem with a blanket ban at 24 weeks is that the most heartrending and complex cases where the birth defects are the most severe are exactly the ones that will end in a forced birth, because there won't have been time for proper testing and diagnosis. My friend whom I mentioned upthread had her TFMR at 28 weeks - and there was no way it could have been done sooner. Her baby would have died at birth.

Exactly, and this is what posters like bumbleymummy need to read and understand.

We are talking about a foetus with DISABILITIES. How can that be linked to all children.

Again, we are talking about disabilities diagnosed while in the womb.

At some point you do have to judge people and have some moral reasoning otherwise we lose all morality.

I'm not saying you can't judge them. I'm saying you can't force them to have a child they don't want.

If I want to terminate a healthy pregnancy because I don't want a baby at the moment, that's my right. If someone wants to abort a baby because it will not be aesthetically perfect, that's is also their right. You don't have to agree with it or like it, them keeping or terminating the baby doesn't effect you or your life so you should not get a say. The same goes for the church, the pro life movement, the politicians, the judges and the lawyers.

We are adults and we should be free to make decisions over our own bodies, our own families and our own lives.

The problem with a blanket ban at 24 weeks is that the most heartrending and complex cases where the birth defects are the most severe are exactly the ones that will end in a forced birth, because there won't have been time for proper testing and diagnosis. My friend whom I mentioned upthread had her TFMR at 28 weeks - and there was no way it could have been done sooner. Her baby would have died at birth.

This is exactly it and posters like @bumbleymummy can harp on about earlier testing but until organs and hearts can be accurately visualised full, informed decisions cannot be made. 30% of babies with chromosomal abnormalities will have a heart defect of some form. The severity cannot be known until fetal echos can be performed and a full picture unknown until the anomaly scan.

@Timekeeper1
The point is simply that it’s still very clearly a baby whether it’s disabled or not. You can’t dismiss it as an bundle of cells’ at 24 weeks. Nothing to do with ‘rights’ just a basic point about how you’re trying to be dismissive because it’s difficult and uncomfortable to face the reality that you are dealing with something that very clearly looks like a baby and if it was outside of a uterus you would find it more difficult to end its life, disability or not.

@bumbleymummy I am not talking about bundle of cells. I am talking about a foetus with a disability. What it looks like is completely irrelevant. You either are genuinely confused, or you are attempting to muddy the waters. What it looks like, is irrelevant. You are talking about something completely unrelated to the topic. Please stick to the topic.

.If it has a disability at 24 weeks, or 12 weeks, or 31 weeks, then an abortion is needed.

That's quite harsh Timekeeper. Do you not believe women have a choice?

@Timekeeper1 you are the one who said this:

No 'babies' are being killed in the womb. It is NOT a baby! so you are the one who brought it up.

@Redwinestillfine That is false. The brain stem and nervous system isn't fully developed until around week 29. At week 20 there is no possibility at all, whatsoever, that it could feel any pain. And many tests CANNOT be done until week 20.

@Abbccc Of course I do, where do I say that women don't have a choice? I said that regardless of week, if a woman needs to have a termination, she should be able to have it.

post 24 weeks, a mother will have to give birth to her baby , so what does ' forced birth' actually refer to? Once a baby is viable, I do not think the mother should get to chose whether it is born dead or alive.
I know this will not be popular either, but I know someone who had 2 acephalic babies and had to fight to carry them to term . She was heavily pressurised to abort and what she wanted was to cuddle them for whatever hours she got to spend with them. Both options are heartbreaking but it should not be a battle to want to carry to term and the hospitals are expert in managing any pain.
What also worries me is the numerous stories on line of parents strongly urged to abort who went on to have 100% healthy babies.

bumbleymummy my friend certainly did not dismiss her baby as 'a bundle of cells'. This was a very much wanted child. I would imagine it is the same for the majority of women who have these late TFMR. When nature goes wrong, we're in a situation where there are no happy outcomes for anyone. The question is whether we think it's OK to condemn all women in that position to carrying to term a baby who will not have a life. Because that is what will happen if a hard line is set for all at 24 weeks. Women in the most awful complex situations are the ones who will suffer most - and you and your like would deny them the choice to have control over when that ends and when they can start grieving.

@bumbleymummy I responded to another poster who said it is a 'baby' that is being 'killed'. And I simply pointed out that no one is 'killing' babies.

vdbfamily my whole point is that a women carrying an acephalic baby (or whatever other serious health issue is involved) should have a choice. The woman you knew wanted to carry to term - she should have had that choice without being pressured. Equally another woman in the same situation may well not want to carry to term. She should have the choice to terminate. Your judgement over what is the 'better' choice is meaningless.

I think the law should be changed I’m against abortion I think it’s murder but it’s shocked me to find out that this law is even legal and it doesn’t just cover Down’s syndrome it also covers cleft lip and clubbed foot 2 of them most treatable disabilities I was born with a clubbed foot and I had an operation to fix it when I was baby it horrifies me to know that I could’ve been aborted right up until birth.

@Timekeeper1

”A physiological fetal reaction to painful stimuli occurs from between 16 and 24 weeks’ gestation on.“

This is from this paper on maternal and fetal analgesia for surgery - not pro-life propaganda.