To think the future for women in the work place is looking pretty bleak at the moment?

[KittyRainbow]

Just that really. While I understand why certain measures are being taken to slow the spread of C19. I am struggling with how much more it is affecting me than my husband.

We both work full time, and have 3 DC (nursery, primary and early secondary age) We have always had a pretty equal approach to childcare, taking turns with sick days, appointments etc but he does earn 3 times what I do (despite me having more education and better qualifications than him)

My eldest (12) will not be going back to school until September and we have been told that it will likely be part time in school, part time learning at home.
Likewise my middle, who starts reception in September. Again we've been told it will likely be part time. My youngest attends 2 childcare settings. She is only allowed to return to one for now and neither can take her full time.

My husband is due back at work from furlough FT from June 1st. My work have been great, I am currently working FT at home and they've been very understanding so far (helps that he's been on furlough as he has been able to take the children away for conference calls etc) and have no concerns about me being lone carer from June.

BUT they've said that they will expect people to be back in the office from Sept. Most of my colleagues are men and are fine with that.

I will not be able to do that unless schools and nurseries go back FT. Almost every woman I know is in the same boat. Even my secondary age child will need input at home. There is 0 chance she will sit and do school work if she is left at home alone. The smaller two obviously need constant supervision. Husband's work cannot be done from home. Mine can but not with the children around.

AIBU to think that all of the PT school/childcare etc is going to affect women far more than men, and to think that moving forward we will see a trend towards far less women in the workplace?

Not everyone has the choice to take shared paternity leave!

The problem is that, with a take-up rate of only 1% amongst those eligible, there's little chance of the terms being improved to cover situations like yours.

But if a woman abandons her career Takes her legal entitlement to maternity leave

doesn't take up shared parental leave can't force her partner to do so, is told by partner if she goes back to work she has to cover the childcare costs out of her wage, has a partner who is self employed or on a zero hours contract.

doesn't consider her partner going part time to share the childcare as above, can't force her partner to do so etc

decides she'd rather live off her partner's £100k salary than her own £30k salary that's just basic maths. Why would any family choose to be poor if they didn't have to be. Idealism goes out of the window when you need to put food on the table and nappies on your child.

Look I appreciate where you are coming from but everything you write just screams women blaming. You say women make bad decisions, if that's the case why are so many women still apparently making poor decisions en masse? Despite social media. Despite 'enlightenment'?

As 20 something old and pre children I was every bit as equal as my male counterparts. I couldn't imagine time where that wouldn't be the case. I was stupid.

@KittyRainbow You are right. It is refreshing to see someone else who knows that choices are rarely, if ever, objective and free from cultural influences. Our identities and beliefs are shaped by our society, therefore so are our choices.

I can see why people don't like this being pointed out, though. No one wants to think they aren't independent individuals, in control of their choices.

and by the by Pelleas it's very easy to sit there as someone who hasn't got children and be certain that you would be a stronger person, wouldn't give up your career, your independence and would have picked a better man than others.

The thing they don't tell young women Is that men are very good at being good until they don't have to be any more. There's never a big discussion about it where the man suddenly becomes a twat, just a creeping change in the dynamic from being equals, to women 'making choices' and men carrying on as they always have done.

That's even before you start to consider the increased risk to women from domestic abuse once they get pregnant and beyond.

There's never a big discussion about it where the man suddenly becomes a twat, just a creeping change in the dynamic from being equals, to women 'making choices' and men carrying on as they always have done.

Exactly this. I have always made sure I've kept my career - I've started a business and done a Master's since DD was born, but I still find myself with half the income XP has when I earned more than him when we met because he decided being a father wasn't really his thing and barely sees DD now she's a teenager. It's affected her quite badly and her mental health has suffered leaving me with even more work to pick up the pieces. I've also cared for my DM and DF before he died, another factor affecting women's ability to work.

Well I have two small children and agree with every word that @Pelleas has said. It seems that a lot of the women on here find it difficult to hear that they do in fact have some control over their lives and choices. It’s much easier to blame ‘society’ for things you’re not happy about than consider whether you might have made some different choices along the way.

Particularly the point about seeing the value of maintaining a £30k career when your DH earns £100k. It’s not just a case of basic maths because you need to buy nappies. No one needs to earn £100k and you can buy nappies from £30k. Pelleas is 100% correct in saying that by giving up your own career to live off DH’s nice big salary, you’re choosing to live a certain lifestyle at the expense of your own career and independence. You can’t then turn around and complain that no one takes your work seriously if you didn’t take it seriously yourself.

And for all those saying their partners wouldn’t step up...well no one forced you to stay with them and keep having more babies. If you saw what the status quo would be and chose to stay and exacerbate it with more children, you made that choice.

There’s nothing wrong with these choices, they’re personal decisions based on your own priorities. But please own them and stop trying to blame anyone and everything else for your lower earnings as a result.

You don't have to bow to societal pressure but the point is it makes things more difficult. Society is still sexist and numerous people absolutely hate women when it comes down to it, including some women themselves. Class, race, privilege are huge issues as well. You start with a loaded dice, not a level playing field.

@Pelleas I hope one day you'll learn that starting off by patting yourself on the back and being self-congratulatory about your excellent choices in life doesn't usually go well when you interact with other human beings, particularly when you are trying to convince them of a particular argument. Unless you just enjoy winding people up of course, which is entirely possible.

While with my ex I never gave up working I even worked 4 12 hour night shifts a week to make sure I was bringing in money and to cover child care while he worked in the day. Sadly his choices have now left me as the sole carer of three very damaged children hence why I’m now struggling with work and childcare.

The context here is that one of the major risk factors for child poverty is if the household is headed by a single parent. 90% of single parents are women. That makes the current situation potentially much harder regarding shopping and home education. You simply don't get 90/10 outcomes without some very strong social forces shaping 'choices'.

So 8n your case, it's nothing to do with you being a woman but simply the fact that you do a job you can carry out from home whereas your OH can't. If it was the other way around, would you have started a thread about the future of men being bleak?

If my husband refused to make changes to his career to share care of our children after we agreed that’s what we would do, it would quite possibly have ended our marriage. So would I. But then you'd end up being a single parent which has disadvantages. Even when it came to housing I had landlords tell me that they only wanted to rent to "families" ie have a man in the house. I built my career as a single parent but I still know my salary is less than the male who did it before me despite having more qualifcations and experience. I also have full time care, I suspect you'll tell me women should accept nothing less than 50/50 shared care (my situation is different as my son was conceived by rape). But you can't force people to see their kids. Some parents slowly fade out of their kids lives. Many men aee themselves as far too important to look after their children.

Some women choose to stay at home or work pt but for others it isn't a choice. To pretend there is no sexism just gives more fuel to the fire. It also makes them look stupid as they are denying facts. Sexism is real. It reminds me of when I was doing some work with other survivors after being raped and the people telling me "men can be raped too" like it made it ok.

doesn't consider her partner going part time to share the childcare as above, can't force her partner to do so etc

But, by the same token, her partner can't 'force' her to anything either. Are you suggesting that all such situations reach a stand off where both partners are about to head out of the door to go to work leaving the children unattended? I doubt it. At some point there must be conversations in which the couple agree who will look after the children and when.

being self-congratulatory about your excellent choices in life

I have never said I've made excellent choices in life. Without derailing the thread, I've made some terrible relationship choices in the past. However, I have always hung onto my job and independence, and I haven't made the mistake of tying myself into a terrible relationship by having children. It's not self-congratulatory to state that, it's simply a fact. Of course there are downsides to remaining childfree and many ways in which childfree people are disadvantaged/put-upon in the workplace, but, that was my choice.

In short, I am not criticising the choices anyone has made, just the fact that some people are complaining about the consequences of their choices and trying to blame society, while they are part of the society which is perpetuating the same choices, again and again.

I mean, I earned more than husband in a better job before I had children. Do people genuinely believe that my career stagnated afterward because I chose to let it? Or is it more likely that societies overall view of women as 'carers' had an effect on those choices?

Oh OP I see what point you’re trying to make but honestly there is a real element of women doing this.
I was so career driven, just completed a very tough 4 year qualification and had moved several time’s for work. I was going to fly so high, even when pregnant I was determined I’d go back as soon as I was physically recovered, FT and not let it impact me career....blah blah blah

Now I’m laid here with my 10 week old DS sleeping on my chest, taking my full mat allowance, crying at the thought of returning and only considering PT. I had no idea I’d feel this way and I’m certainly not going to feel guilty about it. We recently moved to a ‘naice’ rural commuter village and it’s filled with women just like me, DH’s earning £50k+ (most much higher) and they work PT because they want to go to baby clubs/be school governors and focus on their kids.

These women are professionals, Dr’s, solicitors, accountants, teachers. They know all the cons of ‘disadvantaging’ their careers but they prefer to have time with their children in a way that their DH’s don’t. I think there is a huge biological element, a lot of women feel a way that men don’t.

The problem is sometimes you don’t know they are a terrible partner until it’s too late.

@WaterOffADucksCrack I’m sorry about what you’ve been through. If you read my posts you’ll see that I have acknowledged several times that being a single parent gives you similar problems in the workplace. But I would rather have those problems as a result of being a single parent than being in a marriage to someone who doesn’t support my career. That’s why I said that someone betraying me by promising to share the load and then going back on it would probably end my marriage. Admittedly I’d still struggle in the workplace but I would have been true to myself and my expectations from a husband.

@Godzillasonice but if you have retained your career and financial independence it isn’t too late to walk away if someone has become an arsehole. Isn’t that kind of the point? And these boards are full of women who have had several children with someone who showed exactly who they were after the first one. I understand there are extreme circumstances (abuse, rape etc) which I’m clearly not talking about, but in most cases that’s a decision the woman has made and can’t act like she didn’t know what he was like until four kids and 20 years later.

Well I couldn’t carry on my job as it was nights and I guess I’m an extreme case as I didn’t have a clue what he was like. He was abusing the kids while I worked. Still feel guilty to this day for it. It’s not societies fault but I am now struggling to get back to earning anywhere near what I was. The job I had wasn’t a high flying career I was making money from the hours I was doing and the time of day.

OP I struggle to sympathise specifically with your predicament I am afraid. You chose to walk away from your career due to travel, fair enough, I would do. But why blame your choice on 'society'?

You managed on your income for 18 months when dh was out of work,why can you not manage on your salary alone? If you choose ot let your own career suffer just because DH earns more, then again this is your choice. Once again you blame 'society' but this is your choice to make.

Many of us manage to make different choices, even if it isn't what we perceive 'society' might expect of us!

Start making choices that work for your family, not what you think 'society' wants you to do.....

A lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Looking down on others from your pedestals. Revolting.

@genie no one is looking down on anyone, it really isn’t revolting. If you can’t cope with robust debate the internet probably isn’t the place for you. Perhaps it’s just hard hearing that not everything is someone else’s fault?

It's not about looking down on people, GeneGenie - it's about wanting to see a change in society which will never happen while people continue to blame 'society' when the choices they have made have negative consequences.

Nope. I have a nice cushy job at home and DH is a front line key worker. I earn 5 times more than DH.
We don't have children because neither of us like them. Seem to me it's your life choices and your division of labour that's the issue.
Why did you end up looking after children when you earned more?

People blame things on society.

Who is that? Its us.

Society changes because individuals do, but all together. We all need to look at ourselves and look at we want to change and make sure we teach our children accordingly.

Its 'societys fault' is often used to people can feel they didnt have a choice.

Sorry but you are looking down on people. And actually everything lost in this specific scenario will be someone's fault - the government's.

Some of the attitudes on here are vile. I've said it once but society won't change because you've been horrible to women on the internet.

It must be nice to be so perfect.

I'm happy with the choices I've made. It works for our family and honestly I don't care what society thinks we should do. Couldn't give a fuck.

What I care about is that in general this will effect women more (it will and if you say it won't you're wrong) and it will massively effect children's education.

Blended learning is a shit show and a sure fire way to ensure that women end up back in the kitchen watching the kids where the belong.