To think the future for women in the work place is looking pretty bleak at the moment?

[KittyRainbow]

Just that really. While I understand why certain measures are being taken to slow the spread of C19. I am struggling with how much more it is affecting me than my husband.

We both work full time, and have 3 DC (nursery, primary and early secondary age) We have always had a pretty equal approach to childcare, taking turns with sick days, appointments etc but he does earn 3 times what I do (despite me having more education and better qualifications than him)

My eldest (12) will not be going back to school until September and we have been told that it will likely be part time in school, part time learning at home.
Likewise my middle, who starts reception in September. Again we've been told it will likely be part time. My youngest attends 2 childcare settings. She is only allowed to return to one for now and neither can take her full time.

My husband is due back at work from furlough FT from June 1st. My work have been great, I am currently working FT at home and they've been very understanding so far (helps that he's been on furlough as he has been able to take the children away for conference calls etc) and have no concerns about me being lone carer from June.

BUT they've said that they will expect people to be back in the office from Sept. Most of my colleagues are men and are fine with that.

I will not be able to do that unless schools and nurseries go back FT. Almost every woman I know is in the same boat. Even my secondary age child will need input at home. There is 0 chance she will sit and do school work if she is left at home alone. The smaller two obviously need constant supervision. Husband's work cannot be done from home. Mine can but not with the children around.

AIBU to think that all of the PT school/childcare etc is going to affect women far more than men, and to think that moving forward we will see a trend towards far less women in the workplace?

What about D) both adjust a bit?!

@phineyj gin claims another victim- option D (both make sacrifices, have kids, change lifestyle) was also there for the taking.

You're right, OP, though this has much more to do with Brexit than other factors. The Tories are gagging to remove maternity rights and water down concepts such as sex discrimination.

@Pelleas

Lecturing from your high horse isn't helping people already in this position.

And...

Lots of people across the country don't earn enough to support a family on only one wage, so yes, you ARE saying 'the poor' should not have children' if you expect them to wait until one of them (particularly the woman - as yes, they're still paid less) can afford to support a family on their one wage.

Some choices are Hinson's choice or Claytons.

Yes if both are in well paid professions there's more of a choice there to be made, but if they're both in low paid jobs - not so much.

We need pay & respect improvements across a lot of sectors.

People need to take note of which jobs are currently key workers & how they're treat/paid. Things need to change. A lot

Stop blaming women.

If you are a nurse and your husband is an investment banker then his earning 'potential' will always be better than yours. It doesn't matter if you are the best most highly paid nurse in the country, it just will.

I see that, but it harks back to the point I raised earlier - choosing your lifestyle over your own career (and the more broader societal goal of equality).

A look on Google suggests salaries in more senior nursing positions range from approx £37,000 to £72,000. I don't want to derail the thread into one of those stand offs between people who live off £10.50 a week vs people who can't get by on less than £500k a month however I'd venture to suggest that given the average salary in the UK is around £30,000, the senior nursing salaries quoted above would be salaries you could reasonably live off.

So we return to choices. Yes, £37k or even £72k would be peanuts compared to an investment banker's salary, but in the example above, the nurse would be relinquishing her career because she chose to enjoy the lifestyle benefits only affordable on her husband's salary. And while people keep doing that, we will never reach a place where husband and wife are both on investment banker salaries; and the nurse in your example might well never even reach £37k.

Stop blaming women.

I'm not blaming women - I'm blaming both parties in these decisions - men are just as much at fault here.

Oh and before You start having a go at me for landing myself in this position through bad choices - I haven't, but more through luck than brilliant choices)

I suppose the fact that I cannot currently get a job because there is no childcare, and employers know that what childcare there is will be sporadic, is all my fault too? Because I made the choice to have a child 2 years ago, in a society that offered paid childcare and backup help from our families.

Although DH and I share covering sick days and nursery runs, he would not be having this issue because employers assume the mum will sort it. That's me. And you know, I'm not sure I'd hire me right now either.

If two working parents (in any jobs) encounter childcare problems such that one has to give up work to care for the children, then they look at their incomings and outgoings and do the math.

Its a practical and financial decision is it not?

I doubt in many households these days it’s an assumption that the man goes to work simply because he’s a man.

Although DH and I share covering sick days and nursery runs, he would not be having this issue because employers assume the mum will sort it.

And the reason for that is all the things I've been saying. You and your husband share childcare equally, but that's by no means always the case. Women are perceived negatively because at least 80% of the time, it's the woman who does sort it, and it leads to this situation. If men did their share, this wouldn't happen - and women need to stop enabling the man to slide into the default role of breadwinner.

@pelleas can't you understand it's a vicious circle?

You honestly don't have a clue.

So we return to choices. Yes, £37k or even £72k would be peanuts compared to an investment banker's salary, but in the example above, the nurse would be relinquishing her career because she chose to enjoy the lifestyle benefits only affordable on her husband's salary. And while people keep doing that, we will never reach a place where husband and wife are both on investment banker salaries; and the nurse in your example might well never even reach £37k.

But couldn't that be related to societal pressure too? Our society is capitalist. It doesn't matter if you are on the bones of your arse or a millionaire. Wanting stuff, more stuff, newer stuff, BETTER stuff is sold to us, from childhood as what we should do.

So it makes sense, to maximise your income, and men earn more. Of course sometimes women earn more, and the men take over childcare. But that is not the norm, and that's not because women make bad choices, or are more likely to make bad choices. Why would women be more likely to make bad choices than men. Realistically not often even bad choices, just not the best choice for them, personally.

can't you understand it's a vicious circle?

Yes - that's exactly what I'm saying. Vicious circles will never end until people stop repeating the same patterns and breaking out of the cycle.

Omg you don't get it.

Forget it. There's no point arguing with you because as much as you think you know it all you've got absolutely zero experience of being a mother and what that entails. You will never understand.

But couldn't that be related to societal pressure too? Our society is capitalist. It doesn't matter if you are on the bones of your arse or a millionaire. Wanting stuff, more stuff, newer stuff, BETTER stuff is sold to us, from childhood as what we should do.

I have no doubt of that, but it is still a choice. You do not have to bow to societal pressure and ideas of what you should do. Of course, the notion of choice means that you are equally free to embrace the stuff, stuff, stuff culture - but if you do that, don't complain when a pandemic disproportionately affects women because so many of them have taken on the role of main child carer so that their partner can carry on earning to buy all that stuff, stuff, stuff.

you've got absolutely zero experience of being a mother and what that entails

No, but unfortunately I suffer exactly the same discrimination by virtue of my sex. Short of attending job interviews wearing a t-shirt that says 'I possess neither children nor a womb' that's unavoidable. I would like to see things change, both for mothers and non-mothers, so that those who want to can have a fair shot at a career and it's no longer seen as unusual to have SAHDs or house-husbands.

I couldn’t agree anymore with @Pelleas. It’s our decisions the ones that put women in a more vulnerable position than men and not society.

I became a mum in 2018. I was earning around 3k more than my husband then. He wanted to take care of our son for a few months and I was happy to go back to work so I could also continue with my career. So we decided to do 50-50 of leave. I’m one of the only mums i know that has taken this opportunity. I’ve read in mumsnet many women that have said they’d not like it as they’d not trust their partners to bring the kids up the way they want and that they’d miss their kids too much (as if dads weren’t missing their kids).

I went back to work after mat leave and changed jobs. Nowadays I earn even more than my husband. If someone of us needs to drop work/hours it’ll be him most likely tho I’d not mind again doing 50-50 so our careers aren’t impacted more one Than the other persons.

When my son has been ill we’ve done 50-50 off work days.

Id love to have more kids but I also think the impact it’d have in my professional life. Not only that couples need to work as well as a group and share responsibilities and not only fall into one of them and the other one not doing anything. And the main parent needs to trust the other person to bring the kids up their way as well.

I would like to see things change, both for mothers and non-mothers, so that those who want to can have a fair shot at a career and it's no longer seen as unusual to have SAHDs or house-husbands

Yeah. Me too. Shaming women on the internet for their bad decisions and telling them it's all their own fault won't do that.

You're shouting at the wrong people.

I'm not entirely sure how I'm supposed to rage against the machine in the name of broader societal equality when nobody will hire me in the first place.

For me, it comes down to the fact that paid childcare being more available in this generation (v my mother's) made employers less nervous about hiring women in their 20s and 30s. Now that paid and family childcare has been exposed as vulnerable, the nervousness has returned.

@easter now to me THAT is modern feminism. Well said.

I’m a key worker but struggling with the lack of childcare. I’m a single mum and have no one to help me. So far my work are being understanding but I can’t survive without my job. Luckily I work in a school so the holidays won’t be a problem but after that god knows what I’m going to do.

Shaming women on the internet for their bad decisions and telling them it's all their own fault won't do that.

I'm not shouting at anyone. But if a woman abandons her career - doesn't take up shared parental leave, doesn't consider her partner going part time to share the childcare, decides she'd rather live off her partner's £100k salary than her own £30k salary - whose fault is that? How will things ever change?

EasterIssland That's exactly what we need to see more of - proper equality in family decisions, couples taking advantage of shared parental leave, both careers being seen as equally important.

I am lucky. My DD is 18. But I have a full time job and I did struggle as DH and I have NO family and our childminder (who we moved to when our first and brilliant childminder got married and moved away) was always shortening her hours or needing time off for driving lessons or going on holiday. And we had to take holiday when she did AND pay her which wasn't much fun. But I couldn't find another childminder close enough to DD's nursery/school and no WFH as the technology was pretty much only available to Managers then.

DH did what he could, but he worked for a firm of accountants where all the male partners had stay at home wives and took the view that husbands did NOT get involved in childcare. They even got shirty about paternity leave when DD was born and wouldn't let DH come and visit me in hospital when I was there for a week because DD has jaundice. I had no visitors and cried every day.

Anyway, thanks to less than understanding employers and massive childcare issues with our childminder, DH left his job. He became for a while a stay at home Dad, started his own business (although it was hard with DD in tow) and we found a good Out of School Club that enabled us, once DD was full time in school, to dump the childminder completely .

Yes, it's been massively hard. But I was the higher earner and DH didn't have hangups about the man always needing to be the breadwinner. So it has worked well. DH and DD are very close.

As to childcare now, most of my colleagues have young children and they are struggling. And we are somehow getting through it. Compressed hours, afternoons off, late starts and constant interruptions to conference calls from under 5's. We just power through as best we can. We've all been there and not a single person has complained. Some of my colleagues have to work late after the kids are in bed to catch up. We reschedule calls around naps. Yes, it's easy for us because we're not customer facing, but firms are either going to have adapt or let experienced staff go. External recruitment is frozen. And you can't just redeploy someone from elsewhere in the company to work as a Capacity Analyst. It took me best part of 20 years to get all the qualifications and experience I have now.

Just to add to the above - all my colleagues are male with working wives/partners, so it isn't just the women who are facing childcare challenges in the workplace.