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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the future for women in the work place is looking pretty bleak at the moment?

357 replies

KittyRainbow · 23/05/2020 15:22

Just that really. While I understand why certain measures are being taken to slow the spread of C19. I am struggling with how much more it is affecting me than my husband.

We both work full time, and have 3 DC (nursery, primary and early secondary age) We have always had a pretty equal approach to childcare, taking turns with sick days, appointments etc but he does earn 3 times what I do (despite me having more education and better qualifications than him)

My eldest (12) will not be going back to school until September and we have been told that it will likely be part time in school, part time learning at home.
Likewise my middle, who starts reception in September. Again we've been told it will likely be part time. My youngest attends 2 childcare settings. She is only allowed to return to one for now and neither can take her full time.

My husband is due back at work from furlough FT from June 1st. My work have been great, I am currently working FT at home and they've been very understanding so far (helps that he's been on furlough as he has been able to take the children away for conference calls etc) and have no concerns about me being lone carer from June.

BUT they've said that they will expect people to be back in the office from Sept. Most of my colleagues are men and are fine with that.

I will not be able to do that unless schools and nurseries go back FT. Almost every woman I know is in the same boat. Even my secondary age child will need input at home. There is 0 chance she will sit and do school work if she is left at home alone. The smaller two obviously need constant supervision. Husband's work cannot be done from home. Mine can but not with the children around.

AIBU to think that all of the PT school/childcare etc is going to affect women far more than men, and to think that moving forward we will see a trend towards far less women in the workplace?

OP posts:
Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 24/05/2020 18:07

Oh yes. Completely. My career was already shaky as part time hours to fit around the kids. I’m an accountant.

Now I’m expected to WFH to full productivity and educate/care for my children. I actually think it’s a H and S issue as my children are properly supervised for hours at a time.

Work HAS NOT mentioned the issue of children. Which is utterly bizarre. In department meetings lots of stuff is mentioned, like whether people might need a better seat for sitting down at home for hours. Or whether their mobile is effective enough for work calls. But that there are three small people knocking around - and caring for them/feeding/running a house is a full time job.

DH earns more than me and is a key worker. I think I might have to resign this summer as I just can’t go on. I’m broken

palebluefringe · 24/05/2020 18:08

@aufaitaccompli, where you happy at first for him to provide?

PicsInRed · 24/05/2020 18:11

PicsInRedat no point did I say all can or do make it out.

And it is exactly them we must strive to support in the systems we put in place to counter structural inequality.

Trevsadick · 24/05/2020 18:26

And u haven't argued against that.

I have argued the view that single oarebts are all in relationships with abusive men, being raped in exchanged for financial security

Plenty are not. That doesnt mean, those that are shouldnt get help.

But you decided that what I did mean.

WaterOffADucksCrack · 24/05/2020 19:52

DarkenedTimes I'm not going to engage with you further because you don't sound well.

DarkenedTimes · 24/05/2020 20:13

What?? Since when did disagreement mean someone 'wasn't well' Smile?

palebluefringe · 24/05/2020 20:32

@DarkenedTimes you sound perfectly well to me Smile

DarkenedTimes · 24/05/2020 21:49

Whew. Thanks paleblue, almost started panicking there. What did Elsa say about conceal, don't feel Grin

aufaitaccompli · 25/05/2020 00:34

@palebluefringe
We both earned. He said he wanted to provide in the sense that he could be the sole earner. I explained we needed both our salaries to run our home, pay the bills etc.

I never stopped working or expected him to carry the financial burden on his own.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well.

I provided the deposit for our home. I managed the finances, he didn't want the effort but expected benefits or power far exceeding his earnings and overall contribution to the home.

Namenic · 25/05/2020 04:45

Unusually I think I agree with most posters. Which seems contradictory, but there are different pressures in different situations.

  1. I think more women choose ‘caring’ jobs with relatively low pay and high stress as a career (I was one of them). They don’t worry about income or job flexibility (eg wfh, no night-shift/rota) as much.
  2. some of the career choice can be due to peer pressure/educational bias/societal bias.
  3. biology plays a part as women have less choice to have a family At a later age when they are more established. Also, prematurity, after-birth effects, choice over length of breastfeeding bias the decision on who takes time out.
  4. in general poorer families will have much less choice. It is harder to split up if partner is v selfish, they may have housing insecurity.
  5. but some (richer) people may have more choice than they thInk - eg smaller house, change career for both parties.

They key would be to identify careers for both parents where they are able to work part time easily and are family friendly and encourage employers to see this as a positive thing. I would rather have a flexible employer, good work conditions than a high salary.

We should try and negotiate with our partners. Eg if I take time out, can we have a pot to save into so I can do some courses/set up a business to develop my career? If we meet someone who has a spouse who stays at home, maybe ask if they like that or wish they could work?

Namenic · 25/05/2020 05:04

I do agree that some women stay at home/don’t progress in their career out of choice which does leave them vulnerable if something happens to the spouse.

However some of the benefit of this is that the home is more relaxed (so spouse can progress faster), they may be able to give their kids more educational support etc. People just have to be aware of risk/benefit and mitigate some of the effects (eg by having savings/continued development) and make the decisions jointly as a couple - ideally before marrying and having kids.

WaterOffADucksCrack · 25/05/2020 08:10

Well you're either confused or deliberately misinterpreting things Smile

Weareboatsremember · 25/05/2020 08:24

Well, for context, my husband and I split my maternity leave with both of our children. I had the first six months and he had the second six months. We both work full time, me earning about £20k more than him, but I can work from home, while he works out of the house in public services.
He is more than happy to look after his own children, however the fact is that I am the one in the house while he is out at work, so I am the one desperately trying to be as productive as my child free colleagues, while keeping a toddler from throwing himself off high surfaces, and home schooling a 6 year old.
We need both incomes to meet our financial commitments, quitting or reducing hours for either of us isn’t an option.
So I outearn him, but am still more affected than him as he can’t do his job from home!
Anecdotally with my friends, and in my own experience, women are disproportionately affected, and it’s not as simple as some people are making it out to be.

Trevsadick · 25/05/2020 08:37

@WaterOffADucksCrack it was a low blow to try and shut someone up. And you know it

Weareboatsremember you bring up some interesting points.

People on lower wages general tend not to be able to work from home. Therefore they are more at risk.

Men are more at risk of complications during to covid. So a man working outside the home is far more at risk of being impacted.

Your imoacts are a result of your jobs. Like me and dp. He does manual work, i do office work. Therefore I can work from home.

Its one of the problems when people look at earnings vs risk of the virus. Thats not a sex issue.

Caelano · 25/05/2020 08:49

Namenic I agree with much of your post but I’m not entirely convinced about part of your first point- IME women do seem to consider job flexibility even more than men. Eg I know quite a number of women who deliberately work evening or weekend shifts to fit around their partner and reduce or avoid childcare costs.
I also think that with the length of ML now, physical factors such as recovery from the birth and bf are less of an issue ... unless we’re talking about extreme cases such as a woman having such terrible birth injuries she is unable to work after a year it’s not really relevant. Likewise with bf- it’s entirely possible to bf long term after returning to work, especially now when ML can last until well after the start of weaning. (Just as an aside, I continued to bf when I returned to work after a 3 month ML. Bf trends are linked more to factors such as the level of education of the mother rather than whether she is employed or not)

But broadly I agree with what you say. There are so many positives to sharing earning and caring responsibilities more equitably between partners.
One basic positive which perhaps often gets overlooked is that like with all things, there are positive and negative Aspects to being at home and to working. I’m sure we can all relate to that. A day at home caring for little children can be lovely- no early morning commute, freedom over how to structure your day, no performance management targets to meet... or it can be crushingly repetitive and isolating, leaving you feeling undervalued. Likewise a day at work can make you feel great that you’re using your intellect and skills, you’re getting social interaction and approbation ... or it can be super stressful, dashing to work early, high stakes meetings, targets to meet ...

That’s why the age old debate about whether it’s ‘harder’ to be at home or work is utterly pointless. There are pros and cons to both. When people want to push a particular view, they’ll cherry pick the pros (or cons) to fit their narrative, but the fact remains that there are joys and stresses with both.
To me, that’s a pretty good argument in itself to aim to balance the roles between both partners. That way, you both get to enjoy the benefits of both and also have a better understanding of both too.

There are often threads from women complaining that their dh doesn’t lift a finger at home or with the kids and that it’s alright for him because he’s swanning off to work all day able to have coffee breaks whenever he wants etc. It’s like there’s a complete disconnect, with each partner assuming the other one has it easier, and that’s how resentment grows and the roles become even more entrenched.

Undoubtedly someone will be along in a moment to say that their DH’s job is too important to be flexible, or that they can’t share parental leave etc etc But surely the ultimate goal should be a better balance for people, not this default to the woman being the carer, where it often seems to be the case that she willingly goes along with it at first but then becomes resentful when the impact of it starts to bite.

To return to the OP, covid 19 and the resulting difficulties with nurseries and schools being shut hasn’t created the situation - it’s highlighted a situation that was already there. If mums prioritised their work life as much as dads, and if dads took their caring responsibilities as seriously as mums, then the current situation would impact on both sides.

A key thing as Namenic says is negotiation. Not when you’re at the end of ML but ideally before you decide to start a family or at the very least during the pregnancy. Don’t even start with the assumption that one of you will stop working. Start with the questions: How are we going to use shared parental leave? How are we going to continue working? How are we going to carve out caring responsibilities? What sort of childcare do we want to use?
The answers won’t of course be the same for every couple, and some of them will be influenced by external factors but it’s a Damn good starting point.

There was a lot of discussion upthread about a scenario where the woman earned 30k as a nurse and the husband earned 100k and the assumption was simply ‘well there’s no point in me working because he earns so much more’ No discussion around career development for the 30k earner. No discussion about pension. No discussion about the fact that a combined income of 130k means paying for childcare is not a problem. No discussion about the fact that the 30k earner is performing a socially essential role. Just a simple ‘what’s the point of me continuing to work?’
It’s this tendency of women to sell themselves short which is a big part of the problem. And that’s not blaming the women, it’s shining a light on a very real and worrying tendency

YouJustDoYou · 25/05/2020 08:57

I'm in a very similar situation to you op. No work from home though for us and as dh's work pays far more and I was part time any way to fit work in around school hours he will be working whenever he can (of he still has a job and IF his company even survives), looks like I'll be sacrificing my hard-earned job simply for childcare. I'll be beholden to him and his wage, and whislt he is trustworthy not all partners are and those of us stuck with the childcare and unable to wfh are now at the mercy of our wage-earning partners. Sounds dramatic but it's true. And as it's typically women who are the ones who take on the bulk of childcare this will absoluetly affect us far far more.

YouJustDoYou · 25/05/2020 09:00

No discussion about the fact that a combined income of 130k means paying for childcare is not a problem

We have no childcare now though. Nurseries reopening but not for those of school age obviously who can't attend school right now. Babysitters? Where are they right now? Isolating. No nannies. Not everyone has space for a nanny/au pair anyway. No au pairs right now. Maybe childcare will improve in the future before years end. But right now there is nothing, personally.

Caelano · 25/05/2020 09:35

@youjustdoyou yes, as I said, the situation right now due to covid 19 is exceptional and extremely difficult for many people. The lack of childcare aspect is impacting more on women but it must be just as difficult in another way for men who are more likely to be back at work but are disproportionately affected in terms of serious complications or death from covid 19

Having said that, I do think more and more childcare provisions will come on board over the coming weeks. The economy won’t survive otherwise.

My post was really about normal circumstances, because covid has highlighted issues which already existed.

The 30k/100k discussion upthread was not about covid 19: it was actually typical of the type of thread that appears periodically on MN:
“ dh earns 2 or 3 x more than I do so it’s not worth my while working.’
This is the type of default that I think @Pelleas was talking about.
If the household of a couple mean that paying for childcare is not a problem then why on earth would the default be that one partner should give up work?

If the couple sit down, discuss it sensibly and still come to the conclusion that the woman on 30k will stop working because she’d prefer to be at home, then of course there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s a valid decision. But own it. Be realistic about the fact that you’re choosing to prioritise your dh’s career, and that you’re choosing to give up your occupational pension and that there is likely to be an impact further down the line. Don’t dress it up as ‘society pushed me into making this decision’ when there are different options available to you.

It was a bit depressing that early parts of this thread were seen as ‘women blaming.’ Pointing out that we all - women and men- do have agency over our lives (within the societal structures which surround all of us) is not blaming. It’s actually giving a very positive message. Inequalities still exist but by god things are a damn sight better than when I had my babies, and likewise, my experience was better than that of my mother, whose experience was better than that of her mother.

Caelano · 25/05/2020 09:36

Household income

EasterIssland · 25/05/2020 13:12

@Caelano same way I couldn’t agree more with @Pelleas I can’t agree more with you.

Namenic · 25/05/2020 13:17

@Caelano - true, I think I was mainly thinking of the female dominated medicine, nursing, teaching, caring, social work. All not high pay (considering requirements), low stress nor flexible. But I’m sure there are other jobs women prefer that are more flexible (though they are usually less well paid than Tech, finance etc) - it would be great to know what they are and raise their profile!

I agree it’s important to have the conversation as a couple and not just assume the higher pay option is going to be the default - even then, the progressive tax system means that you need to do careful calculations not just take the headline numbers. I think the high-earning category are generally quite fortunate because they can choose to downsize their house or save up for a few years to have a buffer for when change happens. I guess people may just have to avoid getting in the bubble of ‘minimum expectation’ (eg but all our friends send their kids to private school, do multiple after school activities, foreign holidays).

terracotpot · 25/05/2020 18:03

In the average relationship, why do men earn 2 or 3x a woman pre kids? I don't accept its primarily that men are paid more for the same job, though I accept that can happen

StaffAssociationRepresentative · 25/05/2020 18:12

Personally I think it will be tough for females who have caring commitments for the next few years. Going up against someone with no caring commitments for promotion or new job is going to be tougher than before

SudokuBook · 25/05/2020 18:15

Many women have put their careers behind their men’s for years, COVID is just yet one more factor in this.

terracotpot · 25/05/2020 18:17

Why though @SudokuBook?

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