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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the future for women in the work place is looking pretty bleak at the moment?

357 replies

KittyRainbow · 23/05/2020 15:22

Just that really. While I understand why certain measures are being taken to slow the spread of C19. I am struggling with how much more it is affecting me than my husband.

We both work full time, and have 3 DC (nursery, primary and early secondary age) We have always had a pretty equal approach to childcare, taking turns with sick days, appointments etc but he does earn 3 times what I do (despite me having more education and better qualifications than him)

My eldest (12) will not be going back to school until September and we have been told that it will likely be part time in school, part time learning at home.
Likewise my middle, who starts reception in September. Again we've been told it will likely be part time. My youngest attends 2 childcare settings. She is only allowed to return to one for now and neither can take her full time.

My husband is due back at work from furlough FT from June 1st. My work have been great, I am currently working FT at home and they've been very understanding so far (helps that he's been on furlough as he has been able to take the children away for conference calls etc) and have no concerns about me being lone carer from June.

BUT they've said that they will expect people to be back in the office from Sept. Most of my colleagues are men and are fine with that.

I will not be able to do that unless schools and nurseries go back FT. Almost every woman I know is in the same boat. Even my secondary age child will need input at home. There is 0 chance she will sit and do school work if she is left at home alone. The smaller two obviously need constant supervision. Husband's work cannot be done from home. Mine can but not with the children around.

AIBU to think that all of the PT school/childcare etc is going to affect women far more than men, and to think that moving forward we will see a trend towards far less women in the workplace?

OP posts:
fascinated · 24/05/2020 15:36

I’d love to work part time and my husband part time too, but it just isn’t available in our industry. What can I as an individual do about that?

WaterOffADucksCrack · 24/05/2020 15:38

And this is what women are up against from men, they like full time work, it suits them, why should they give a shit that it doesn't suit many women/mothers? And then women are to blame that we have different needs Erm I'm a woman and a mother. I need to work full time to provide for my family. Me and my partner work full time around each other. Why should I be made homeless to suit someone else or not be able to feed my children because you want to work part time? Great for you if you can afford that but we need to work full time for our families. I'd work pt if I could. But I wouldn't spit venom at others because they needed or wanted to work full time. It's attitudes like that which do nothing for women. What is wrong with a woman wanting to work full time? Shouldn't that be a choice too? Or are choices for women only valid if they are in line with your views?

WaterOffADucksCrack · 24/05/2020 15:41

fascinated according to some it's a female/motherly need to work part time and if you want or need to work full time you don't give a shit about them 😂

randomsabreuse · 24/05/2020 15:43

To an extent there will always be an inbuilt issue for women, because in the standard way of doing things we are the ones who have to be pregnant and do the physical giving birth bit, as well as the physical recovery... This can't change!

Most people's "dream" life involves 2 children, so after child 1 it feels like it is "safer" to prioritise the income that will not be hit by another maternity leave, so it "makes more sense" for the woman to take the salary hit and go part time. There's also quite a lot of hormonal pressure not to be away from the baby for a "long" time too early... which is tough to predict!

Some jobs are very difficult to share childcare around (medical, military, offshore/working on site) and most well paid careers require some work outside traditional childcare hours. Very difficult to sustain 2 unpredictable jobs without local family help or live in childcare...

Women due to come off maternity leave at the moment will struggle to get childcare for a baby as so many settings are closed - their plans (often made 6-9 months ago) are no longer possible.

It's very easy to sleepwalk into a position where working feels unaffordable without ever making a definite decision not to work!

TabbyStar · 24/05/2020 15:48

according to some it's a female/motherly need to work part time and if you want or need to work full time you don't give a shit about them

Some parents do need to work part time, yes, for the well-being of their children, particularly kids with health conditions or other special needs. I said that it would be good if more jobs were three of four days a week, and you came back quite strongly suggesting that I was trying to take your full time job away from you, when I never suggested anything of the sort, just that more jobs should have this option. If your kids can be left without a parent from 7.30 in the morning to 6pm at night, which was my option, that's great but it doesn't work for many kids.

MadameMarie · 24/05/2020 15:51

@WaterOffADucksCrack

This is the problem with the current system. You need two full time wages in a household (or one very healthy wage) to support a family.

It's not sustainable in a bad economy. The shit will hit the fan and it will hit women and families hard.

PicsInRed · 24/05/2020 16:03

since then, women have fought for and won equal rights in law

Yeah? Brilliant news. How's punishment of marital rape coming along? That's been illegal for a few decades now. Or how about even just arresting and charging for it? No? Or how about even arresting and charging for non marital rape? Oh, not much action there either? Oh dear. If even rape isn't punished, we haven't even begun to address "equality".

The law means nothing if it isnt enforced.

choice

Again, choice is made in a structure, not a vacuum. A choice of 3 crap options is a choice of 3 crap options, not this much vaunted universal "choice" we women apparently have. We have the choice of women's-options, not options.

Rainycloudyday · 24/05/2020 16:13

Where are all the homeless single women, then, if you can't keep a roof over your head without a man's salary?

@Pelleas I love you Grin

Pelleas · 24/05/2020 16:14

I don't know the statistics on marital rape, so I will accept what you say, but I'm not convinced of its direct relevance to this discussion.

There are many instances of the law not being enforced - that's not unique to equality law. The point is, we have those laws and while there might be little the person on the street can do to enforce prosecutions in cases of criminal law, there is everything we can do in terms of civil law by actually taking advantage of the rights we have been given - not ceding these to men because it's easier or 'makes more financial sense'.

TabbyStar · 24/05/2020 16:25

Where are all the homeless single women, then, if you can't keep a roof over your head without a man's salary?

Here's some information briefings www.homeless.org.uk/sites/default/files/site-attachments/Supporting%20women%20who%20are%20homeless%20March%202017_0.pdf

weareagenda.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Agenda-Briefing-homeless-women-Jan-2019.pdf

TabbyStar · 24/05/2020 16:26

There's two there, not sure what happened to the formatting, here's the second

weareagenda.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Agenda-Briefing-homeless-women-Jan-2019.pdf

DarkenedTimes · 24/05/2020 16:28

You're kidding, right? Higher jobs need to be full time because they're full time jobs! You can't have managers and execs working 2 or 3 days a week, it would be ridiculously inefficient.

I thought we had proven over the last few weeks that the really important jobs are the frontline key worker jobs?

There’s no practical reason why those high paid jobs can’t be run on a jobshare basis than any other. Goodness, we’ve had the example of politicians running two or three of these oh-so-time consuming top exec positions at once. Confidentiality is not an excuse, it’s not difficult to arrange hand overs (speaking as someone who’s worked in jobshares). High management is not as important as it likes to think it is. Never has been. And as for the inefficiencies, perhaps it’s a good time to flatten the percentage-inflated pay structures again.

Caelano · 24/05/2020 16:31

The problem with these threads is that it becomes a pointless slanging match with people citing extreme examples - eg: ‘I went back to work doing 60 hour weeks after a 5 minute maternity leave’ or ‘I didn’t realise my previously lovely husband would turn out to be an arsewipe who won’t do anything with his kids the moment I gave birth to triplets’

This is a distraction from the actual facts: yes, we exist in a society where structural inequalities still exist, yes none of us are making decisions in a vacuum but - and this is really important - we do still have more agency over our lives than many people care to admit.

The fact is, you can take two people from the same background, with the same life opportunities, and they won’t make the same choices. Fact. I’m sure we can all cite examples from our own friends and families where some people make well considered decisions and others make poor ones.

In my own life, I returned to work after dd when she was 12 weeks old. (Standard maternity leave back then.) some of my friends having babies back then also returned to work; some didn’t. Fine. Their choices. It really wasn’t easy, working with a baby who was ebf, and having to drop her at a childminder at stupid o’clock before doing a days teaching. It would have been easier to give up work, but I knew that my career would suffer if I did. And yes, to some extent I faced ‘society’s judgement’ ... raised eyebrows here and there from people (no, actually women) who couldn’t get their heads round the fact I was leaving a 12 week old baby to go to work. Oh and my mother made a couple of comments along the lines of ‘well, i suppose if you feel it’s the right thing...’ Thanks mum, so much for the sisterhood ...Hmm

Anyway roll on a bit and ds came along. By now ML legislation has moved on and I had a whole 6 months off. With childcare doubling, at this point the costs were the same as my take home pay. There was absolutely zero financial gain to me working so once again, the short term decision to stop working would have been easiest. I chose to keep working mainly for the pension and keeping my foot on the ladder. Once again, there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ here- they are both valid decisions, but it’s naive to think that there aren’t consequences to any decision we make. And naturally, any decision we make is likely to impact on our future choices too... the fact Id returned to work after ML first time meant I had a job to return to after ds. I also had the self belief that although managing a toddler, a baby and a teaching load would be tough, I’d already coped with a 12 week old and working first time.

Roll forward again 25 years. I’m middle management, head of Dept in a large secondary school. In my school- and this is fairly typical, not only in my school- a huge number of women in my age group - 50 plus, choose to work part time. 3 days a week seems to be the preferred option. This is nothing to do with caring responsibilities - it’s a choice which they freely admit is because it gives them the life style they want, time to go for mid week lunches, yoga etc. Once again, nothing wrong with this, but accept the consequences. Own the decision. Don’t complain when you realise your part time wages mean part time pension and that you might not have the old age you’d envisaged.

This is a lengthy post, and I’m certainly not dictating to anyone how they live their lives, but the two things I’m absolutely damn sure of is a) maternity and paternity rights, flexible working rights and financial support for childcare (Tax credits, free hours at age 3) are better now than at any point in history. (I realise of course the childcare situation is affected right now by COVID 19 but I’m talking about normal circumstances.) it’s thoroughly depressing to me, as a woman in my 50s to see such a pathetic uptake of shared parental leave. It’s what I and many of my fellow mums back in the day would have given our right arms for. There may still be some way to go, but for heavens sake, use the right to share parental leave if you want things to be on a more equal footing. Even if there’s a bit of a short term financial hit by sharing it, look at the long term benefits. Better for both parents to have 1:1 time doing the actual daily looking after. Better in terms of how each parent views their career. Better - I would argue- for the child as well. It’s likely that a dad who has sole care for a few months during the first year of life is going to have a better understanding and will continue to be hands on. The other thing b) is that while choices aren’t made in a vacuum, it’s undeniable that you can take two people in the same situation and faced with different options they won’t all choose the same one. So there is choice, within the parameters which exist for us all. And often it’s not about one choice being ‘better’... they may simply be different. The thing is, own your decisions. Don’t complain that your career is screwed or your pension is non existent if your choices are part of what’s lead to that situation.

WaterOffADucksCrack · 24/05/2020 16:33

Some parents do need to work part time, yes, for the well-being of their children, particularly kids with health conditions or other special needs Why not say parents then instead of women and mothers?

The reason I responded the way I did was because you said they like full time work, it suits them, why should they give a shit that it doesn't suit many women/mothers? which seeemed pretty "strong" to me.

If your kids can be left without a parent from 7.30 in the morning to 6pm at night, which was my option, that's great but it doesn't work for many kids It doesn't work for mine either so I don't do it like that. I built a career which works around my children just like my male partner did.

The language you use seems to be trying to belittle other parents, especially females which is interesting since you're all about an equal society.

WaterOffADucksCrack · 24/05/2020 16:36

MadameMarie I completely agree

DarkenedTimes · 24/05/2020 16:36

Rights for women are not a patch on what the Nordic countries manage. Nor are we meeely talking about maternity leave here. Maternity leave lasts for 1 year max, kids start school after 5 years. Yet the impact for women lasts for the rest of their lives. That is the issue, and there is no excuse for it except that it’s convenient for our ruling lords and masters (note male terminology).

PicsInRed · 24/05/2020 16:38

Where are all the homeless single women, then, if you can't keep a roof over your head without a man's salary?

They live with bad step daddies and take rapings and beatings to keep a roof over the kids' heads. the state then calls them abusive for living with an abuser

2kool4skool · 24/05/2020 16:40

What about female same sex couples? Same situation, same childcare challenges. One might sacrifice salary And career or both may try to adjust to accommodate if possible. Exactly the same outcome yet no cries of injustice on the part of the sacrificing spouse. Just a logical, practical and financial decision. Is it not?

Trevsadick · 24/05/2020 16:42

They live with bad step daddies and take rapings and beatings to keep a roof over the kids' heads.the state then calls them abusive for living with an abuser

Fucking hell you think very little of women.

I have been a single parent. Managed my own bills, lived independently. I didnt and dont need a man's wage.

It makes me feel quite sick how some feminists view women.

PicsInRed · 24/05/2020 16:44

Caelano

Same.

However I was able to do this due to the middle class privilege which afforded me a good education and resulting ease of obtaining employment.

I recognise that less fortunate women dont have these advantages and are more readily "fucked" by less serious circumstances.

WaterOffADucksCrack · 24/05/2020 16:44

Caelano I didn't say handovers are difficult to arrange but if a staff member has an issue which needs dealing with I'd need to deal with it asap, they wouldn't be comfortable with it being passed around. I manage a care home so don't earn a massive salary and have never claimed to be "high management". A large part of the workforce are women from difficult circumstances. Residents and their families wouldn't want two managers either. So much changes with the residents just over a day. If there's a safeguarding issue then safeguarding and CQC won't accept it being passed over or "oh I won't be in for the next X days so will deal with it then".

PicsInRed · 24/05/2020 16:45

It makes me feel quite sick how some feminists view women.

It makes me sick when other feminists view women through their own privilege and then condemn those same women for their attempts to survive.

Sisterhood indeed. QED we dont have equity.

WaterOffADucksCrack · 24/05/2020 16:46

Sorry Caelano that was meant for DarkenedTimes

DarkenedTimes · 24/05/2020 16:48

Tbh it’s not entirely fair to say women should put up and shut up about their choices - their choices of course, never the men’s who have nothing to do with the production of children of course - because we’ve never had such good rights. The working environment for those rights is only of very recent origin, historically speaking, and has been in continual evolution ever since. A large part of that evolution has always even driven by the modern work environment’s complete disregard for social and natural practices. It needs to continue evolving, not go backwards.

DarkenedTimes · 24/05/2020 16:50

If care home inmates can manage with having part time care staff who actually do the caring they can cope with part-time managers too. It’s just a change that they’re not currently used to, is all.

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