To think the future for women in the work place is looking pretty bleak at the moment?

[KittyRainbow]

Just that really. While I understand why certain measures are being taken to slow the spread of C19. I am struggling with how much more it is affecting me than my husband.

We both work full time, and have 3 DC (nursery, primary and early secondary age) We have always had a pretty equal approach to childcare, taking turns with sick days, appointments etc but he does earn 3 times what I do (despite me having more education and better qualifications than him)

My eldest (12) will not be going back to school until September and we have been told that it will likely be part time in school, part time learning at home.
Likewise my middle, who starts reception in September. Again we've been told it will likely be part time. My youngest attends 2 childcare settings. She is only allowed to return to one for now and neither can take her full time.

My husband is due back at work from furlough FT from June 1st. My work have been great, I am currently working FT at home and they've been very understanding so far (helps that he's been on furlough as he has been able to take the children away for conference calls etc) and have no concerns about me being lone carer from June.

BUT they've said that they will expect people to be back in the office from Sept. Most of my colleagues are men and are fine with that.

I will not be able to do that unless schools and nurseries go back FT. Almost every woman I know is in the same boat. Even my secondary age child will need input at home. There is 0 chance she will sit and do school work if she is left at home alone. The smaller two obviously need constant supervision. Husband's work cannot be done from home. Mine can but not with the children around.

AIBU to think that all of the PT school/childcare etc is going to affect women far more than men, and to think that moving forward we will see a trend towards far less women in the workplace?

However I was able to do this due to the middle class privilege which afforded me a good education and resulting ease of obtaining employment.

You don't have to be middle class to get a decent education. It helps, certainly, but it's not essential.

It makes me sick when other feminists view women through their own privilege and then condemn those same women for their attempts to survive

You know anything about me and my privilege do you?

Or my privilege as a single parent?

Or are you assuming I have loads of privilege because I dont need a man's wage?

That's the issue. You cant comprehend, that actually, there's lots of women that can live without a man's wage. You think so littlw of women you think we arw all in the worst positions. And if we arent its because we have always been privileged?

Plenty of women are single parents and manage to live independently. I earn more now than I did as single parent.

Its amazing you can not understand that some women are in bad positions and that lots of women are not.

Why woild you think all women need a man to survive? When many of us don't?

It helps, certainly

It does help. Privilege does help to maintain privilege. Obviously. You're starting a 600m race 100m in.

Its amazing you can not understand that some women are in bad positions and that lots of women are not

It's unamazing that you cannot imagine the reverse. It's a huge shame though. It encapsulates my sense that women can never reach equity. Because we'll never be a team.

This thread demonstrates that and it is so devastatingly sad.

Where have I ever said there arent women in very bad positions?

Why woild you think all women need a man to survive? When many of us don't?

Why would you think that all of us should be able to survive like that?

Why shouldn’t the men take their turn?

Why would you think that all of us should be able to survive like that?

Where did I say anything about 'all

Men absolutely should take their turn. Where did I say they shouldnt?

DarkenedTimes inmates? It's their home not a prison. And who do you think you are to speak for them? I can't speak for other homes but at mine we have regular residents meetings and include them in the running and structure of their home so I know what they are happy with. If they wanted 2 managers I'd move on as I need a full time job. Obviously I wouldn't tell them that.

Why shouldn’t the men take their turn?

But it's not about taking turns is it? Some women never want to take their turn at financial independence.

I certainly didn’t get where I am due to ‘middle class privilege.’ Very ordinary background. My whole point is that whatever the starting point, two people from that starting point can make different life choices and decisions. That does not conflict with the fact that of course some people are born into better off families than others.

Just to give one more example. I have a great learning support assistant who supports in my subject. Lovely lady. My age group, grammar school education (so that’s an advantage she had over me for a start!) went to university. She had a well paid job before having kids and then She had a long period of time as a SAHM - her choice, she’s very upfront about that. Her dh was also well paid so they could have afforded childcare but she didn’t want to work. She works part time earning low wages (and id be the first to support better pay for LSAs but that’s another thread) She’s totally capable of earning more- she’s bright, a good worker and i know for a fact our head teacher approached her a while back to see if she’d be interested in retraining as a teacher - we’re a school for teacher training. She doesn’t want to because she doesn’t want the extra work or pressure.

Now- at the moment everything’s fine- she can afford to work a few days a week earning not much more than NMW. But what if her dh gets ill? Or dies? Or fucks off with a younger model?
Is she some poor victim whose never had the same chances as her dh (or me)? Hardly.

This is just one example but it’s illustrating a point. People’s circumstances are not all down to having had a ‘middle class upbringing’ or having been born into wealth (or conversely having been born into a working class family.) There are lots of examples of entrepreneurs and successful business people from very humble backgrounds.
It’s just simply not true that people’s lives are completely determined by external factors and that we have no control over our destiny.

Why would you think that all of us should be able to survive like that?

Wether people like it or not this is true.

There is no 'one issue. Olenty of women are happy to give up their financial independence. Some men, refuse to step up and do their share of parenting. Some women are abused. We can go on and on.

But anyone who pretends there arent plenty of women, who want to be at home even though it damages their careers are incredibly naive.

Where have I ever said there arent women in very bad positions?

Where have I said the reverse? Or that, actually?

What I stated is that it doesn't seem you understand that there are many, many women in desperately difficult positions, never mind just bog standard precarious ones. This is why we have women's aid, refuge, RoW and the myriad of domestic abuse support systems in place. It's why we have the family court, child benefit and child maintenance, it's why women are asked by a midwife if they are ok with the father out of the room. It's why we have social services. Because there are so, so, so many women who are in desperate situations.

And not because of their own free choices. Not because they actively decided "I'd like a shite life, thanks", but because our patriarchal society and their own difficult individual circumstances funnelled them neatly down towards that grim outcome.

Privilege matters. Lack of privilege matters even more.

of course privilege matters. You statement was about single kothers being raped and abused because they cant survive without a man's wage.

Its not true. Some maybe, but not all.

Again, what priviledges are you assuming I have?

Very ordinary background

It's all relative. To many, an "ordinary" background will seem very privileged indeed.

Defensive much?? Do you not have part time caring staff?

I am not attacking your position, I was saying that there is no reason why senior positions can’t be part time. I was not originally targeting care homes specifically, that has come from you.

All of this denial of the possibility of part time works only if you accept the premise that work needs the personal and individual touch. I remember when all of that expectation started setting into the workplace, coming from America. Everyone suddenly needed to be personally identifiable so that each customer or service user, call them what you will, had a personalised service. It’s nonsense really. Impersonal service is quite acceptable and fully adequate as long as people are trained to do their jobs and perform them adequately. And at that point you do not need one specific person doing it.

Again, what priviledges are you assuming I have?

Enough privilege to lack an imagining of what lurks behind a shocking number of closed doors.

I am not attacking your position of employment, that should have been. Obviously I am disputing the arguments around employment culture.

While I understand the societal inequalities that exist and feel for the women caught up in it. I am glad to see the conversation around choice happening!

We need to teach young women how to make good choices & decisions. Just having a choice is not enough.
The base of this is character building from a young age. A person of character makes better judgements of people. If you aren’t one it is hard to recognise it in another. People just don’t change that drastically before and after marriage. And even if a change occurred, a proper discussion as adults should be possible otherwise one has to acknowledge they have made a huge mistake and move on (it is very painful, believe me I know, but better in long run)

Also people don’t seem to have a proper vision of marriage - We have forgotten that although there are two people, they are building one marriage and one family. To make it successful, they both need to keep it as priority and do whatever it takes to succeed.
If a man doesn’t know he is bound to take care of his children he is clearly lacking in character.

For women in a twist or bind, can you start with having a honest conversation with your partner on how you feel about everything so you can figure out a solution together (not applicable to those in clearly abusive situations, so sorry - help has to come from external sources)

All the best.

Enough privilege to lack an imagining of what lurks behind a shocking number of closed doors.

Let's see.

I am bame. I grew up in a single parent family. On benefits. Piss poor. Mother has mental health problems and drinking problem. I was teen carer, before they were actually recognised at all. Was brought up that I didn't need an education. My brother was pushed to be educated. I suffered abuse at home. Scraped my gcses and A levels, ended up married to someone who had their own mental breakdown and nearly killed me.

Thats a quick over view. Theres far more to it.

Your problem is that you have assumptions about people who dont agree with you.

You can't accept theres a middle ground. People must agree with you completely or they just simply don't understand.

You are so blinkered, you can't see past your own assumptions and prejudice.

Of course privilege is all relative. No shit Sherlock. It doesn’t alter the fact that whatever the starting point (fucking shit background to born with a silver spoon in your mouth or anything in between) people from the same point do not make the decisions.
To return to my example, If my lovely LSA gets shafted by her dh and he leaves her for his PA, she’d be in a pretty crap situation, in her 50s, on very low wages, no pension to speak of. I hope to god it never happens, but sadly it can do. Or he could get seriously ill. Or run over by a bus.

Trevsadick

I've seen some exceptionally dire things myself, which inform my witness account of "the other side". But we're only 2 people, demonstrably survivors, out of so many who don't make it. Not every women will have the same wherewithal, resources, or even sometimes just a little luck.

Life isn't fair and not everyone can will, work or strive their way out of bad circumstances. Our system actually requires that.

But that is a strong component of the point at issue Caelano. I’m glad you’d support better conditions for the low paid, nor am I surprised an LSA doesn’t want the hassle of teacher training. Actually my experience is that the teaching industry - I’m tired of the pretensions around the word profession - are very scathing of mothers wanting to be teachers now, despite it being one of the few options and it’s commonality in the past. It’s not sufficiently serving of those pretensions.

We need to get back to the point where an honest days work deserves an honest days pay, for everyone. That includes those working to raise kids.

I’m all for an honest days pay for an honest days work. I just as many others have pointed out on this thread that women often sell themselves short for a whole range of reasons: they don’t want to share their parental leave, they don’t want to work full time, they prefer for their partner to forge ahead with his career and put their own on the back burner etc etc And while these choices might be the easiest ones in the moment, it’s wise to factor in some long term planning too.

I’m also a great believer that at the heart of this it’s about making life better for everyone. I have a dd and a ds. I’d hate my ds to feel the pressure that he ‘ought’ to have a high flying full time career at the expense of spending time with any children he may have in the future, every bit as much as I’d hate my dd to feel her career will inevitably play second fiddle to that of her future husband.

My ex wanted to 'provide' but when push came to shove and we needed the extra income (I worked 24-37) hpw at the time, he, full time, he refused.

I remember pawning my beautiful engagement ring for £200. To help pay for Christmas. I never had the money to get it back.

I chose him and his lies, I believed his manipulation. Until I had a breakdown and stopped believing him. That was almost six years ago. He was very unsupportive of my work and put barriers up left right and centre. I gave up a permanent job for a better paid contract role, because I wasn't in my right mind and under severe pressure.

At the time he out earned me by roughly £17. I now almost match him for earnings & have a better overall package. His earnings have remained pretty much static since 2012. We're separated almost 5 years.

I may be on the back foot for now but I firmly believe this is temporary.

I made some choices under duress for which I have suffered greatly. They were not the best decisions looking back, however I was trying to do too much.

I would hope my eldest daughter will not repeat my mistakes. I am teaching her that which wasn't taught to me by my mother.

I accept I am where I am due to my choices (am not blaming myself per se) I was married to a hateful shite. I didn't know it at the time

@PicsInRed at no point did I say all can or do make it out.