To think that my son's behaviour isn't normal

[FirTree31]

Hello,
Youngest DS is 5 (he has older brother who is 9). DS2 has had behavioural problems since about 3 years old, when he was 4 the nursery threatened to expel him after he punched a member of staff in the face. He is now is Primary 1 (well not really just now).

He hits, punches, scratches, kicks and throws things. He SCREAMS. He's also incredibly funny, intelligent, interested, inquisitive, loving, chatty and friendly. He's like Jekyll and Hyde.

Just had a meltdown because it was time to go for a walk and off Nintendo Switch, we've been in the kitchen for 30 minutes while I wait for him to calm down, during which he punched me, kicked me, throw a lunch box at me, and slammed the fridge and washing machine. I just end up staring at him in disbelief. I don't even know what to do, part of my just wants to cuddle him,the other wants to put him in the garden and shut the door.

DS1 was/is never like this, he never did this to me. Youngest feels uncontrollable.

Has anyone else been through this, can this still be in normal range for a 5 year old?.

Sounds like my son. At 5 years old, he would punch, kick, spit, scream and throw things. He's autistic.

He's nearly 8 now and much better! He's also very Jekyll and Hyde, particularly when hungry/tired/transitioning, but obviously I can manage his behaviour much better now.

Does your son have any other autistic traits? Stimming, obsessive behaviour, constant questioning? (Of course, all autistic people are different - aren't we all - but it would be interesting to see if your son presented some of the behaviours).

Two family members of mine have had very similar behaviours. In both cases, an underlying cause was known, but families still had to deal with the behaviour on a day to day basis.

Basically, everything VeraorHolly said.

I would add a couple of things:

Don't let them see if the intensity of their meltdown frightens you. It frightens them- they need to see that there is somebody strong enough to be in control

If they seem out of themselves, completely unreachable then reward charts may not work- there may be strong advantages in NOT carrying over any rewards or punishments

If you can't stop him throwing things, then you may have to live with it, move him to somewhere where there is nothing he can break, or restrain him if siblings are at risk of being hurt

My brother's bedroom door had a little plaque which was there to cover up the hole our younger brother had kicked in the door with his bare feet whilst trying to get in to attack him.

The good news is: both my db and my dd grew out of their meltdowns, both are lovely adults with no problems with violence, and both are on excellent terms with their parents and siblings.

Sorry, also meant to say that it was at nursery that my son's SEN was first 'flagged'.

Agree what happens when he behaves like this? Are there consequences? And have their been from when he first started it?

Kids push boundaries and if they get away with shit they keep doing it.

I second the Explosive Child book recommendation.

This is not just pushing boundaries FFS. He's clearly not in control of his behaviour.

Seek out professional help. There will almost certainly be parenting support programmes in your local authority area. We are shortly getting psychology led parenting support for our eldest.

Your son will feel awful when he is out of control of himself like that.

Research Oppositional Defiant Disorder and ADHD. Don't feel guilty or ashamed or any of that nonsense. It is actually very common due to environmental and social circumstances. Try and get a referral to childrens services although they are very stretched at this time more so than usual. Start a diary. Put up a behaviour chart for praise and rewards. Routine is key. Let him punch teddy or a pillow if needed. That is fine to do!

FirTree31. I have had a similar experience to yours. My son was very much how you describe between the ages of 3 and 5 years. I was the one who he directed his anger at every day. I had not experienced anything like it with his older sister.

As a parent it is frustrating, over whelming and painful. You feel like a failure. There were many dark days. I found that in order to protect him the best that I could do was by putting him in the garden and shutting the door. I tried to hug him when he was having his melt downs but that made matters worse.

He is now 9 years old. He receives SEN support at school. He remains on the waiting list for school age Autism Diagnostic Observation Scale assessment. What worked for both of us was for me to try and understand where he was coming from. I have found Brenda Boyd to be very helpful 'Parenting a child with Asperger Syndrome' and anything written by Tony Attwood. He is now a calm, thoughtful and caring child who likes peace and quiet. I love him a great deal and I would like to assure you that you will both get through this.

A family member has a child who used to be like this. They ended up getting desperate and doing an elimination diet after psychiatrists/psychologists etc couldn't help. Turned out he had allergies to certain normal foods (nightshades were quite bad) and after they sorted that his behaviour really turned around.

My son can be like this especially when he was your son’s age- he has ASD and ADHD.

What I do find works is a count down to the end of something. So for example “10 more minutes on the switch then we’re going to go for a walk”. Then it’s “5 more minutes then it’s time to turn off the switch”. Then 2 minutes. Believe it or not counting down alone has helped massively to avert meltdowns.

I really feel for you all it’s exhausting- physically, mentally and emotionally.

MissJG

ODD is what is suspected with my daughter.

OP. It took 5 months from seeing the GP to getting a Keyworker from Children’s Services, then 3 months after that for both the Keyworker and GP to make referrals to our local SEN unit. Then 6 months to initial appointment with the SEN nurse which was over the telephone last month. This was incredibly quick but we did have a lot of sources and school behind us. Just to give you an idea.

Have you tried visual timetables? Get him to have some input. So some control but he only gets to choose if you walk at a or b time.
Also use his switch or tv as a reward. So "do you want to walk here or here? Then when we get back you have switch for an hour"

Some kids really do struggle with transitions. But whether he's late to develop emotionally or does have some underlying send (my ds has asd) you are using strategies that can help.

This needs to go alongside keeping a diary. What was happening at the time. What was the behaviour. Why do you think the behaviour occurred (behaviour is communication). What did you do. How did he react. What works and what doesn't.

Then alongside that seeking support from school and GP for a referral to developmental paediatrician.

Some people really do have an extreme level of emotion and anger and they need to gain skills to control it. Outside agencies can support this. Some people so have underlying SEND. But you still need the advice as you still need to help him control it.

The best thing you could ever do in my opinion is throw the nintendo switch in the bin and all other computer games in the house.
My son went through dramatic personality changes when he started playing video games and it destroys every last bit of their creativity.

@VeraorHolly when you say you do this for a living what do you mean?! I am not challenging what you are saying, I don't disagree with much of it, i just wondered as it could mean anything from being a nanny to MH nurse to psychiatrist to clinical psychologist! The only thing I disagree a tiny bit with is to do with threatened punishments, not following through, just because it is more effective to reason with them once they are calm? Their ability to not act out is to do with how they feel and their self control, not to do with fear of punishments?

@itwasntbluedolphin I have a doctorate in psychology, and specialise in interventions for challenging behaviours with children between the ages of 2-7 years old, with expertise in ASD, ADHD. You don't see a lot of diagnosed attachment issues in children not in care, but I have experience with that too.

Really, you should never trust the expertise of an anonymous stranger on the internet. But, the OP asked, and I was having a quiet moment so answered. I've don't have any idea what the function of the behaviour is, how the OP responds to the behaviour, or any underlying SEN so I tried to keep my comments very general. Most of what I recommended is just good parenting. If the OP does all that, and there are still problems, she should seek professional advice.

I agree that punishments should be used only rarely, but if you say you are going to give one you need to follow through. One of the biggest parenting mistakes people make is threatening to do something and then not following through "no computers for 2 weeks!", and then relenting after a day of no challenging behaviour. If you threaten a punishment, or promise a reward, you need to follow through because the child needs to trust you. It is really best not to rely on extrinsic rewards or punishments, but they can be a hard habit to beat. Good parents are predictable and follow through.

DS2 used to have "volcano moments" where he would simply erupt in response to something he didn't like. I could see that he genuinely couldn't help it so punishment wasn't really going to work. He generally came to apologise afterwards. He peaked in Y3 I think and by secondary was mostly calm. He does still have his moments aged 19 but has matured considerably!

He's like Jekyll and Hyde.. Yes. I used to joke that DS was good twin/bad twin in one body.

Key was that none of his teachers believed he had any kind of SN (and there are children with ASD in his class so they weren't unused to it). What do your DS's teachers say?

Consequences don't necessarily need to be a punishment. They could be the child helping to tidy up the mess they made or talking about how the meltdown made mum feel. Consequences should be about how things can be done better and recognising that some behaviours are unnacceptable. I've learnt as a SEN TA for a number of years that you never make promises or threats that you can't keep and to be consistent in how you deal with behaviour.
itwasntbluedolphin talking when calm is good practice but sometimes behaviour is choosen as they learn it is an easy route to what they want.

Does he have any tics or OCD behaviours? It might be worth looking at PANS/PANDAS.

I would ask for him to be professionally assessed asap. He, and you, need all the help you can get.

I think with a child with difficulties of this kind, the whole question of punishments might have to be slightly tweaked.

Of course it is very bad to keep making threats and not following through.

On the other hand, it is quite possible if you have a child with SEN (or some kind of behavioural disorder) to get stressed and threaten a punishment in the heat of the moment which is actually damaging to them and will cause an initial problem to spiral and grow much bigger.

If you realise this, then it is ok to revisit it, to speak calmly and clearly to the child and say "I realise that this punishment was not a good idea, what we will do instead is this".

This happened to me once or twice until I got better at not threatening punishments unless I was absolutely certain I had thought through the ramifications. In such a situation, it was better to take control and change my mind than just watch the next few weeks disintegrate. Nothing makes you look out of control as much as trying to force through a discipline that they are not capable of dealing with.

I used to have tantrums when I was really a bit too old to have tantrums. They were born out of frustration at my inability to make people understand what my problem was, due to my age. Yes, I remember going to my room when I was at least 5 and throwing things around. I remember learning very early on what it was safe to throw and what was likely to get broken or torn. My parents were entirely unsympathetic - You broke it yourself - so I also learnt what things I valued enough to not want to risk breaking them.

Send him to his room, let him chuck his own things about, don't replace anything.

Please don’t put children out in the garden if they are going to scream for ages. I have a DS with ASD who really loves peace and quiet. We had a child move in next door who had meltdowns. His parents would put him out side for an hour or so to scream, sometimes several times a day. The upshot being that my DS couldn’t cope with the noise and would also have a meltdown (he was never violent, but scared, sobbing, etc).

Also any neighbours with hearing aids will have a dreadful time with screaming children in the garden, as it amplifies every noise.

...but!

You could acquire some headphones if your son had sensory issues. Many children in schools now wear them. In class, assemblies, outside at play etc. They support as a barrier.