To think that my son's behaviour isn't normal

[FirTree31]

Hello,
Youngest DS is 5 (he has older brother who is 9). DS2 has had behavioural problems since about 3 years old, when he was 4 the nursery threatened to expel him after he punched a member of staff in the face. He is now is Primary 1 (well not really just now).

He hits, punches, scratches, kicks and throws things. He SCREAMS. He's also incredibly funny, intelligent, interested, inquisitive, loving, chatty and friendly. He's like Jekyll and Hyde.

Just had a meltdown because it was time to go for a walk and off Nintendo Switch, we've been in the kitchen for 30 minutes while I wait for him to calm down, during which he punched me, kicked me, throw a lunch box at me, and slammed the fridge and washing machine. I just end up staring at him in disbelief. I don't even know what to do, part of my just wants to cuddle him,the other wants to put him in the garden and shut the door.

DS1 was/is never like this, he never did this to me. Youngest feels uncontrollable.

Has anyone else been through this, can this still be in normal range for a 5 year old?.

Definitely document, what he was doing before, what were you looking for him to do/go, reactions and how you handled it etc. This is very helpful to spot triggers and for advice. Do you give him warnings/times if he is moving activities. Look up 'first and then'. I use this on all my kids. Transitions can be difficult for some children. Anyway document everything for 2 weeks and it will identify a lot

Did he know how many minutes he had left on it & did he know a walk was on the cards? I'm sure he did, but -
If not I suppose it is a bit like us snuggling down to watch a film then someone switches it off half way and tells us to leave the room?

This is exactly what I was going to post!

Some people just struggle with this sort of thing, it doesn't necessarily mean SN but you, op, need to step back and look at triggers and patterns that might help. I'm not sure if you have, apologies if you're already exploring this.

What are the consequences for the behaviour?

Is it just when he doesn't get his own way? Or are there other occasions?

Why are people so terrified to suggest SEN? its very disabilist to suggest that ignoring possible issues relating to SEN that with early help could become much less intrusive on day to day life, is better, than assuming it must be all the OPs faukt , in no other medical, avenue would people suggest overwhelming dont seek medical help. its deeply irresponsible, rule everything out then move forward.

My son had a temper, he spent a lot of his life on “the naughty step” but it just made him worse. My son kept himself awake all night so he was in too much of a state to get to school.I took all the advice the ”experts” gave me and it made things worse.

Punishment doesn’t work on this level of anger because it’s way deeper than a kid being a brat, it’s quite likely to be anxiety, the punishments were causing more anxiety and my household became a battleground. Eventually my son was tested for ASD and that was the problem. I homeschooled him for a few years and he’s done various courses, smaller groups and a flexible teacher really helps.

Scream at your GP to get someone to look into his behaviour, don’t keep telling him off if it’s making him worse. While you wait for help get outside as much as you can, many kids with these issues are totally different when they’re exercising.

A friend of mine has a DS who was like this around bedtimes. She started to video him and when he was calm the next day would show him the video and explain how unacceptable it was/ask him what he thought of himself behaving like that. He has got much better since he can see for himself what he is doing.

The garden idea was great.

I know a child like this. Generally very bright, charming and affectionate but when tired cruel, extremely violent, spiteful etc. To an extent I think it’s just a very unusual manifestation of the normal difficult that young children have regulating their emotions under some kind of stressor. Lots of children have this. Some get extremely weepy when tired and cry constantly. Others shit down and pretty much refuse to do anything. Others instigate arguments for the sake of being contrary and so on. I’m not saying that it’s not a problem. Obviously a tendency for violence is a problem but within the context of more normal difficulties in emotional regulation that children face.

For people saying to shut a 5 year old in the garden- You are sick!! What absolutely disgusting behaviour towards a child!! 5 years old and shut out the house....wouldn’t be surprised if that bought on nightmares or worse behaviour, if I knew someone who done that to a child I would be reporting them!!

Shut them out the house and in a garden.....honestly! Can’t believe people have even suggested it- I imagine they do the same to their kids too

Sorry just out walking now, but will reply as soon as possible.

Garden has been used before, as has his bedroom, but he screams and throws stuff, there are marks on his door from throwing his toys.

Reach out to your school SEN lead as soon as possible.

I took all the advice the ”experts” gave me and it made things worse this is interesting because the real "experts" do not advise imposed consequences or punishment, over fifty years of research points to a child's behaviour being communication about something wrong, working out what the problem is and dealing with that. Not punishment.

It also might not be SN.

OP it could be a myriad of things - it could be health problems (now or trauma from historic if he had any problems when younger), it could be G&T and his control centre being underdeveloped, it could be SN, it could be something happening to him now elsewhere if this is a recent thing, a myriad of things. In terms of "normal" parenting you could try research based advice such as that outlined on the site "ahaparenting" written by a clinical psychologist. If you google "my child is violent ahaparenting" then it will take you directly to some links about what she says about that. That might well take you to other links to think about other root causes. There will definitely be things you can do to help him though, whether it is you helping him through this or seeking the right external help. It can be very hard ot get the right external help, though, so be aware of that.

My daughter is currently being investigated for exactly this. She will full on trash the house and attack us. The only thing that works is carrying her to her bedroom, closing the door and letting her rage it out. You cannot reason with her until she’s calm or she escalates.

Things really came to head when she tried to throw herself out of a moving car mid meltdown. We’ve been dealing with it for 4 years now.

Her trigger is always disappointment.

I have a 5yo who lashes out. You ask if it is normal. It's hard to say when we are living in abnormal times! There could def be a possibility of sen- ask school for help. I like the mantra - all behaviour is communication. He's not just being naughty, he's telling you somethings not right.

My girl gets like this when overwhelmed. Worse when tired and hungry

I would say to try as a start making communication really clear and even a visual routine for him e.g. at 9am we do school work, 10.30am snack, 12pm 30mins of free play etc with reminders 5mins prior to the transitions.

We use a feelings chart to check in how she is doing. She's bright and articulate nut cannot verbally express how she feels. With the chart she can point and explain better.

Putting mine in the garden works well for us. We tell him to go and run around. He throws everything he can find, we keep an eye on him through the windows, he calms down after getting it out of his system then picks it all up again. Our garden is large, sunny and beautiful, won't give him nightmares and obviously if he really wants to come in he can but usually he's too stubborn. He knows we are right there if he wants to calm down and talk. We've only had to do it about 3 times.

Better being 'shut' in the massive garden than opening the gates to the main road where he's likely to get run over. I assume snowdown you 'shut' your kids in the house usually, or do are you fine letting toddlers wander out of the door and wherever they want?

No, this doesn't sound normal OP. He punches people in the face? Not normal at all. Have you had him assessed for SEN? My friend's DC was like this and has been diagnosed with Aspergers (i.e. high functioning autism) and ADHD.

Also agree with OoohTheStatsDontLie post.

Some 5 yr old boys can be a nightmare with behaviour but also could be SEN so hope you can get some support with it to work out your best strategies.

It's extreme, but you're not alone. Have you read the Explosive Child? I found it a lifesaver. Figuring out their triggers is a first key step.

Look up PDA if you feel normal sanctions don't work. My nephew has it, he was very similar and has been excluded from school and in a behaviour unit all by year 2!

My sister has 3 other kids through same school so it was easier to see that it wasn't just a behaviour management issue!

Does he have any insight afterwards, OP?

Good luck.

I do this for a living. .Here are some suggestions:

1. Get yourself on a schedule and stick to it. I know this is hard in lockdown but predictability is reassuring to kids. Order activities favourite/middle/unpreferred. The transition from switch to walk is a challenge. That is a transition from most preferred to least preferred. Try transitioning from the switch to a snack, and then the snack to a walk. Try to interrupt games and tv shows at natural break times (after this episode, when this level is completed, we will have a snack)
2. If you can, make the schedule accessible so your child knows what is coming.
3. Give lots of choice. Distract if you know a trigger is coming up (this morning my daughter nearly melted down on a walk and I had to pretend to be her fairy teacher for the last mile to distract her)
4. Never, under any circumstances back down during a tantrum or a threatened tantrum. Be calm, almost disinterested in the tantrum. Don't shout, it just adds to the child's feelings that everyone is out of control. A five year old tantrum is much easier than a 13 year old tantrum, and you can weather these. Never, ever, offer him something great to stop the tantrum. Once it starts you have to wait it out quietly. Don't reinforce it.
5. If you threaten a punishment you have to follow through
6. I wouldn't spend a ton of energy on reward charts, etc. Those tend to be short lived and the kid only behaves if they want the reward. Be calm, and give lots of good attention when he behaves well.
7. Once the episode is over, move on. It is over and done.
8. Remember, 5 year olds don't actually want to be in charge. When you give into tantrums, they feel less secure because you have given them the power.

I don’t shut my kids anywhere as they are well behaved- that’s just luck, however my brother was full on growing up, people didint really get diagnosed back then but he definitely has something as it was unbelievable some of the things he did as a child- however if my parents ever shut him out the house in the garden, I just wouldn’t be able to stand and watch that- that’s going too far. If they are shut out and happy to be there but angry then that’s fine- but if they are screaming to come back in that’s a different story- imagine being 5 and your parents shut you out the house...a place where you live!

Stop staring at him?
Put him in a room/outside where he can let off steam and calm down?
Prepare him for things earlier "at 10am we need to be washed and dressed and then at 11am we can go for a walk." Then "in 20 minutes we need to switch off the computer so we can go for the walk. What are you looking forward to seeing on our walk?"
And lots of rewards "well done! You've done got ready so quickly!!" (45 minutes later than anticipated).
Don't entertain the screaming either, just pick him up and walk out the house with him. Keep talking to your other child about the positives and once your upset child sees everyone have a good time they might join in.

Look into Ross Greene 'The Explosive Child'.

Tougher and tougher arbitrary punishments are never the answer IMO, but especially not with a child like this. You just end up in a battle of wills and imposing more and more severe sanctions which makes the behaviour worse.

Imagine doing whatever you have to do, no matter how hard, to keep your child and their siblings safe?

Don’t judge until you’ve been there.