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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

So sad for the lack of innovation in uk regarding schools reopening

229 replies

emptyfridge · 21/05/2020 23:07

Watching newsnight about schools reopening. So sad to see the contrast to the approach here in the uk and how they’ve dealt with this abroad. We need to start thinking about the impact of all this on children and drop all this crap about home learning for the next year.

OP posts:
OneJump · 22/05/2020 09:09

This government only want to hear people that agree with them, which is why they are useless.

A terrible prime minister, surrounded by sycophantic incompetents, not chosen for ability, but for how willing they are to impose a catastrophic no deal Brexit on Britain.

If you voted for them for the last 10 yrs, all of this is on you. And don't bother coming back with waaah Labour. It's on you.

SallyLovesCheese · 22/05/2020 09:14

I think some parents are becoming frustrated because in most roles, we’d be demoted or get a shit appraisal if we constantly said ‘no’ to every suggestion of a new way of working and wouldn’t come up with solutions only problems.

But you're comparing individual employees "in most roles" with whole schools or academy trusts. It's not up to individual teachers to come up with new ways of working.

I would absolutely love to offer Forest School to pupils on the days I'm not working. I'm a trained Forest School Leader and offer sessions to preschoolers normally. I would, however, need some funding because my sessions are in a small woodland with no toilets or running water. I have to lug everything down there as it is. Plus, it's open to the public with no fencing so if we're there all day some money to temporarily fence part of it off would be needed.

It really does all come down to money.

mondaywine · 22/05/2020 09:19

Scottish schools do go back mid August but not a set date. My LA among others are returning now a week early on a set date. ‘Something’ will be done about the shortened holiday at some point. We will hopefully have some transition time on school for P7 and the new P1s. No other year groups. Key worker and vulnerable children will continue to be in as they are just now. They want to expand this number In June but no clear date yet. We close in my school on the 26th of June so not long to sort and get this going. All teachers to be back in school (Not back to work but back to school. We have been manning hubs and teaching since closure) some time in June to plan for next session and set up the school. Problem is that we are a hub so no idea how I can set up a room that is currently being used. Also as we are manning the hub that week, no idea who will do that so we can get ready.

LolaSmiles · 22/05/2020 09:27

If the OP is talking about lack of innovation on a government level and lack of funding from government meaning that schools are finding it harder to put measures in place to open safely, then I'd agree.

Other posters who've turned up with the sole intention of having a dig at teachers, please don't ruin what could be a genuinely interesting discussion about different education systems.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 22/05/2020 09:50

This government only want to hear people that agree with them, which is why they are useless.

The other major problem being they are proven liars who can’t admit a mistake or admit they missed a target. Look at the fudging of the numbers with carrying out 100,000 tests a day. A proper test/trace system is either weeks away or ‘definitely ready by start of June’ depending on which way the wind is blowing. But even if by some miracle they did manage to get it sorted in the next week who is going to believe them.

If the public put as much effort into holding the government accountable as they did in criticising teachers for pointing out the glaring issues then perhaps we wouldn’t be in a position where we don’t look like we’re anywhere near ready to go back.

Ylvamoon · 22/05/2020 09:51

@Grasspigeons that is exactly where innovation and creativity com into play.
Many parks already have toilet facilities that have cleaning staff assinged , 2 of our local parks have a fenced off area (for dog exerciseing, I know 💩!! ), that could provide a safe area, the only real cost would be for some shelter...

RitzSpy · 22/05/2020 09:55

My sil visited schools in Copenhagen with a view to them forming a different kind of school for kids with socialisation challenges. The schools have a very different focus, it feels that testing kids when they are 5 for reading ability would never even be a question never mind an answer. I do wonder what would happen to funding schools in this country if we banned private schooling...

StoorieHoose · 22/05/2020 09:58

Do you mean England or the UK? The Scottish roadmap specifically mentions widening the school estate so that community halls, libraries etc can be used

FrippEnos · 22/05/2020 10:01

Ylvamoon

FFS the unions have tried to be part of the solution.

Once again direct your anger where it should be going.

saraclara · 22/05/2020 10:02

This is why (apart from the very low Covid death rates) Denmark can do what it's doing, and why the UK isn't comparable:

Trust, community, and the Danish welfare state:
Denmark has extremely high levels of social trust. People trust each other and trust institutions like the government, the monarchy, the hospitals, and the police. Trust is an important part of the business environment, too. People are assumed to be honest unless proven otherwise.

The high levels of social trust also help persuade Danes to pay some of the world's highest taxes to finance an extensive set of welfare programs. The Danish health system is tax-funded and free for the patient. Danish schools and universities are also funded by taxes and free for students. The idea is that everyone must contribute to the community and in return, the community will help care for all.

These values of trust and community are deeply embedded in Danish culture and society and have their roots in Danish history.

Note the high taxes, and a government that the people trust.

OneJump · 22/05/2020 10:02

RafaIsTheKingOfClay So bloody true.

It's a very fine example of them distracting and deflecting from their incompetence and cover ups.

OneJump · 22/05/2020 10:03

-get the papers and their right wing trolls to whip up hatred against teachers.

It works.

SporadicNamechange · 22/05/2020 10:12

@Ylvamoon It’s really not that simple.

Forest school activities are hard on parkland areas. You need sufficient space (that can be monitored and bounded in some way - especially in public parks) and you would have to rotate areas frequently because otherwise the plant life would suffer. And the kids need variety.

The children also need appropriate clothing and footwear. Plus you need to be able to safely get the children there (on a 15:1 ratio, really?). Plus you need more staff (who’ve had specific training), especially if there are going to be toilet trips.

As with all these things, it’s really easy to dismiss people who point out the (many) issues as naysayers who lack imagination. But, actually, things are far more complex than people tend to appreciate.

Aragog · 22/05/2020 10:21
  1. Schools haven't closed. Many are open to KE and vulnerable children and are being staffed by teachers and TAs. Some areas have hubs rather than having individual schools open I believe. Schools have remained open over school holidays for those children.
  1. Schools are widening their intake after the holidays IF certain criteria are met by the Government . There are restrictions being out in on ace, like in almost every other country. Unfortunately the guidance has come in pieces and haven't been very clear, nor has the briefings which gives parents a false idea of what will actual happen and how. I haven't seen anywhere that says schools should close all year at all, just that the widening should be done carefully and gradually to reduce risk.
  1. Lack of funding in schools for years prior to this, and not limited to any one Government either, means our schools don't have the same space and facilities as many schools abroad in these European countries we keep having comparisons made with.
  1. Lack of funding for support staff in schools over the years means that not all schools have the extra TAs needed to open all year groups, in smaller classes, even if they had the space.
  1. Many schools in primary and secondary, and in both sectors, HAVE provided home learning online and not just a couple of worksheets. Unfortunately social media and the media only like to focus on the minority doing nothing/little.
  1. Before opening for wider numbers schools need to be safe to do so. Work places have been required to be risk assessed before allowing people to work in the buildings. Okay, some businesses may have ignored this but that doesn't mean schools should. Schools need to be safe for both pupils AND staff.
  1. Not all staff can return. Those who are clinically vulnerable (not just shielded) should not be working in front of classes. This can affect large numbers of staff in any one school. Schools need to mange this carefully and balance the number of staff they have to how many classes can reopen.
  1. Many schools across the world have been closed far longer than those in the UK have been. Many have not just reopened and certainly not to all children like some would like here. My ex colleague now teaches in China. She last taught in school at the end of January. She is returning on Monday for the first time since then. The children are returning the week after.

Parents may have issues with their children's individual school. This is normal. There are thousands of schools across the country so there are thousands of different ways schools are dealing with this.

Every school catchment is different. What works for one school will be inappropriate for another.

Schools cannot please everyone. Whatever they do there will be some parents who complain there is too much and others complain it's too little. Fortunately for individual schools the minority of parents seem to offer positive comments to staff and schools from my experience. It's only in the media and social groups such as Mumsnet the criticism appears constant and daily.

Like every profession there are some not so good teachers, there may even be some rubbish ones. There are also some fab ones and, like every profession, many are somewhere in the middle and have good days and not so good ones.

Teachers don't make the rules - they follow government guidance, and that comes from their school's leadership teams, academy chain leaders or LEAs.

Every teacher and TA I know has worked through this partial closure. Most I know are working as long a hours as previously but in different ways. It's a learning curve for everyone.

Hopefully I've covered everything.
I may just start to cut and paste - the threads are so frequent!

FrippEnos · 22/05/2020 10:22

@SporadicNamechange

that is not the "can do" attitude that @Ylvamoon requires, we can't be letting the facts get in the way on innovation.

Bollss · 22/05/2020 10:24

I agree op. (I'm not angry at teachers I have no doubt that the vast majority are trying their best and tearing their hair out too)

I'm angry at the government. I'm particularly angry at Nicola sturgeon and I don't even live in bloody Scotland.

I am angry for women and children in the UK.

corythatwas · 22/05/2020 10:26

SporadicNameChange has a really good point. The countries who incorporate a significant amount of forest school-type learning not just for a few privileged middle class schools, but in their overall state system are countries which:

have large areas of land available for such activities (there is pretty well nowhere in Sweden you can't easily access a forest with rights to roam)

have parents who can afford to keep their children in expensive outdoor clothing

have parents who themselves have grown up with access (economic and physical) to outdoor activities and who have got their children used to such activities from an early age

have teachers trained in providing outdoor learning

have (for various reasons) fewer concerns about child safety (the last Swedish school I walked past didn't even have a fence between the playground and the neighbouring woods)

In other words, the two big problems in this country are lack of space and poverty.

grumpyorange · 22/05/2020 10:31

🙄🙄

  1. Look at the difference in deaths between here and Denmark, or did you helpfully miss that bit? If the deaths weren't over 36,000 maybe parents would be a bit more willing to send their children back.
  1. the innovative use of empty theatres and museums as learning spaces, as well as things such as sailing school and forest school.

What about travelling to these places. We are being told not to use public transport. I don't know about you but my nearest museum is a 1 hour drive away as is my theatre. We don't have any forest schools or sailing schools within a 2 hour drive.

  1. Are you one of the parents who have been asked to send your child back OP?
  1. Have you looked at the difference in starting ages between here and Denmark?
SachaStark · 22/05/2020 10:34

Don’t the Danish all pay taxes at a rate of 50% of their income? Hence, public services like schools are extremely well funded? And why they now have large, better-equipped schools and other public spaces to deal with this kind of thing?

Unlike here in the UK, where teachers have to buy their own equipment, because the school has no money.

Ylvamoon · 22/05/2020 10:35

@FrippEnos not angry at all. I as a parent want to be part of the solution. The same was as I as an employeeam part of the solution to get us back to work.

BubblesBuddy · 22/05/2020 10:37

I think the Danes have also taught in unused stadiums, theatres, museums and other unused halls such as church halls. This is innovation and the “can do” attitude. It’s little to do with money and LAs have been given more money. It’s about part time schooling and not all parents will want DC back to school either. So there could be a more flexible approach with lower numbers. It is all very depressing for the children and the parents who want DC educated. It’s even more depressing for the children who are already years behind. They won’t get this learning time back and their prospects will be damaged.

SachaStark · 22/05/2020 10:38

My bad, just checked, and the average Dane pays 45% income tax.

Still, a lot higher tax than in the UK, so their public services are much better funded.

Honestly, you’d think the pandemic highlighting how poorly our schools are funded would be THE THING that made parents angry... you know, at the government who caused this underfunding to happen.

Ylvamoon · 22/05/2020 10:38

@SporadicNamechange it can never be a Forrest school in the traditional sense when you use local parks. But as I said before, with some innovate thinking an creativity the hurdles you mentioned can be overcome.

snappycamper · 22/05/2020 10:40

Oh yet another chance to moan about lazy teachers. How do you know there's a lack of innovation? Have you been in every school in Britain?

I didn't read this as teacher bashing at all. The word "teacher" didn't even appear in the post. This is about the government's approach (or lack of), although admittedly the teaching unions' melodramatics are not helping.

RitzSpy · 22/05/2020 10:41

It's not about travelling an hour to a museum - that's can't do thinking - not creative innovative thinking - it's about making use of local resources...and that will not always be a museum - it might be a town hall, a park, a generous farmer's field, a forest etc.