To want to know more about Amazon UK and it's defunding or otherwise of Mumsnet?

[12boo]

I saw (via twitter) that a spokesperson for audible has made some unpleasant remarks about MN users and they have pulled their MN advertising after complaints from "trans activists" that MN is a hive of "transphobic bigots" so I have cancelled my audible subscription because I find MN enormously supportive and I don't want to support a company that vows so readily to the "born in the wrong body- men are women if they say so" cult.
No clear response has come from Amazon itself in this matter. Does anyone know what their position is? TIa

What many of you are missing is that it's not enough for you to have right on your side (even if you did...which, occasionally dipping in as I do, IMO you have a few valid points and a fuckton of rather nasty and pointless filler that makes you no doubt feel energised).

Advertisers can't moderate at their end. That requires an absolutely watertight set of guidelines within their business, it requires staff, it requires premises for those staff and so basically it requires money.

OF COURSE many advertisers are going to go 'er, not my fight' and get the hell out. It's a fucking minefield as it is, BOTH sides exhibiting many signs of being absolutely batshit. To expect them to shell out hard cash to staff the people they need to deal with "the debate" when all they want to do is sell trashy audiobooks online...PLEASE.

Don't you think it's bizzare not to provide evidence when you are trying to make a point? I haven't seen any evidence of transphobia apart from the occasional evidence collecting twitter troll. Unlike you, I feel evidence is a requirement in order to persuade others that what they believe is correct.

What many of you are missing is that it's not enough for you to have right on your side (even if you did...which, occasionally dipping in as I do, IMO you have a few valid points and a fuckton of rather nasty and pointless filler that makes you no doubt feel energised).

Hear, hear.
If I were an advertising exec the FWR section of MN would put me right off beginning a MN campaign.

Ad execs go where the money is. Morals rarely come into it. They look at traffic and potential returns. The client has the final say and will direct activities to/away from certain media.

I'd I knew a band of serial complainants were rampaging through social media, I'd think 'oooh publicity'.

If I were an advertising exec the FWR section of MN would put me right off beginning a MN campaign.

It wouldn't put me off. I'd be looking for the best place to sell my product. If Mumsnet users were the likely buyers of my product I would be advertising here. Obviously.

Perhaps Audible has a strong enough business to be able to prioritise advertising to checks notes the billion other people out there who don't want to touch this topic with a shitty stick?

Marie the sharp biological division between men and women comes from a variety of sources as far back as Aristotle and is championed in modern times by the Catholic Church. Essentialist views about the differences between the biological differences between the sexes may conclude that the two sexes are different and women are inferior (definitely Aristotle, possibly the Catholic Church) or different but equal in different domains (Testosterone and risk theories, and Gilligan and care ethics). In opposition, non-essentialist theories deny the biological difference claims in the first place (Cordelia Fine). Trans gender critics have the same biological essentialism arguments as the Catholic Church, there are plenty of commentaries on that irony written for laypeople, very easy to find. Here’s one article broadly saying this is a bad thing

www.versobooks.com/blogs/3894-trans-ethics-not-gender-ideology-against-the-church-and-the-gender-critics

And one saying it’s broadly a good thing:

www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/canceled-radical-feminists-and-the-catholic-church-unlikely-allies-believe-women-are-female-31843

De Beauvoir quite famously argued that there is no such thing as sex, only gender, (and therefore there can’t be the distinction you claim). You could interpret her otherwise if you wish, but saying the opposite of her position and claiming it’s obvious only shows that you are not familiar with her work. I thoroughly recommend you read The Sexond Sex.

Audible will be aware that if it engages in gender wars - it risks pissing off potentially half (?) of its customer base. Look at the bigger picture.

There will be coverage and discussion - not just in the trade press but on social media, news outlets will pick it up and give it some oxygen too.

Customers and prospectives looking at this mess will (checks notes) think 'what the hell is that business doing?' and 'why are they listening to random serial complainants?' maybe even 'so they hate women do they?' etc.

The Sexond Sex
Your Freudian slip is showing.

As much I a care for MN I think serves them right

There is a major difference between ‘defending women’s right ‘ (which I am all
For ) and allowing some of the hate I have seen on here

And I’m not referring to everyone but some posts are shocking

But that certain group (and it’s small) are very fixed in their opinion and argue very aggressively

So yeah , whatevs

Money talks

Your Freudian slip is slowing
A really relevant, clear, well thought out and engaging contribution to the discussion. Well done!

Hate? Where? Disagreement isn't hate.

As for the idea that sex doesn't exist - good grief. I've not read De Beauvoir, so can't comment on that, but please do show me a single human being now alive on this planet who wasn't born from a woman. All mammals are sexually dimorphic and that includes homo sapiens. Two sex classes, one producing small gametes and the other one doing far more of the reproductive work - large gametes, pregnancy, birth, lactation, with the necessary side issues of menstruation and menopause.

COVID knows that men are men and women are women.
COVID is clearly cleverer than many people

Hate? Where? Disagreement isn't hate

Nobody said it was, of course disagreement isn't hate.

FTMF30
*Amazon can hardly point a finger. They are terrible in many ways a d very hypocritical to talk about transphobia whem they sell books like this ]]

I took the time to have a look at the pages of the book that you are allowed to read before buying.

Having done this, I am able to say that the book appears from its content to be a (not very well-written) polemic against anti-black racism.

Mind you, the front cover as illustrated is also a bit of a give-away: a picture of a policeman in a Klan hood aiming a gun at a person of colour while three white monkeys have covered eyes, ears and mouth respectively in the background.... Not very likely to be pro-racist, that.

So I am not at all sure what your point was?

No idea what happened there; the post I was qu9oting was near the bottom of page 3 if anyone wants to bother to go and check as I did.

Marie the sharp biological division between men and women comes from a variety of sources

No shit.

De Beauvoir quite famously argued that there is no such thing as sex, only gender.

She argued no such thing. She explicitly states that there's no such thing as an 'abiding gendered self'. There is a clear, albeit implicit gender/sex distinction running throughout that text; the same kind later picked up in power, discourse and performativity (which otherwise wouldn't have been able to draw on its ideas). If its subtler nuances have somehow escaped you, I'd recommend you reread The Sexond Sex.

Do they really let you loose on teaching undergraduates? God spare us, no wonder the HE system is in such a state.

Your Freudian slip is slowing
A really relevant, clear, well thought out and engaging contribution to the discussion. Well done!

I thought so, too. A witty, amusing, non po-faced contribution! Made me laugh.

NB. Rapidly-Googled posts are obvious from a mile off.

It wouldn't put me off. I'd be looking for the best place to sell my product. If Mumsnet users were the likely buyers of my product I would be advertising here. Obviously.

And as an advertising exec I wouldn't want my product associated with controversial/hateful rhetoric. I'd rather go with a safe, broadly popular view. Obviously.

@EstherEliza really, just today I’ve reported a number of posts for misgendering, are all of these posters being intentionally “provocative”, or do they just not like the rule and so flout it all - the - time?

Also for those repeatedly requesting examples, I’ve provided the example of constant misgendering which is deemed, by this site, as transphobic. It’s literally on a daily basis.

(Cue a number of people telling me how the assertion of “truth” is not transphobic, it is as deemed by the rules of this site. So again if you continue to participate in using this site stop breaking the rules by using transphobic language)

I'd rather go with a safe, broadly popular view. Obviously.

Fair play. And what's the broadly popular view would you say?

And what's the broadly popular view would you say?

The one consistently bashing women. Obviously.

@EstherEliza really, just today I’ve reported a number of posts for misgendering, are all of these posters being intentionally “provocative”, or do they just not like the rule and so flout it all - the - time?

Gosh which ones were they then? I haven't seen any posts like that today. Post up your screenshots. I do like a bit of evidence. And if you can provide it, well then I'll just have to agree with you then won't I?

Waits....
Waits some more....

Didn't think so.

but they’re not wrong that transphobia is completely rampant on MN

Hilarious.

It isn't transphobic to say a man cannot change his biological sex. It's just science. It isn't transphobic to say women don't have penises. It's just science.