I don't agree with the 'having children is selfish' debate.

[BabyLlamaZen]

Most intelligent (and even just vaguely worldly) people are aware of the importance of preserving our environment but I am sick of seeing so many self-righteous posts about how having children is the worst most selfish thing you can do for the planet. And this is from people who live their everyday lives exactly as they please but think not having children or only having 1 makes them wonderful martyrs.

1. The selfish thing doesn't even make sense. Yes the entire world is overpopulated. However at some point all these people are going to die. People DO NOT LIVE FOREVER! Every other disgusting thing we're doing to out planet sticks around. Plastic waste being one tiny part of it. The effects or air travel. Meat consumption (which is one of the issues of overpopulation. These people who don't agree with too many children are all vegan right?) There are so many things we need to be changing and yet one thing we do need is people to support it to happen. Do you expect to be looked after when you're ill? Do you want someone to farm your food? If yes, then you must understand that we need people to do that.

We cannot control what happens in other countries. I agree that some other countries are overpopulated. We can just control what happens in our own country. We are actually an ageing population. So really we need to kill off the old people right? Oh wait, no we don't like that. 🤷‍♀️

At the same time there are concerns about the large number of millennials and generations below who are just not having children. One of the main drivers of brexit was to 'take back control' and stop immigration. So reduced immigration and no more children So are we expecting to all grow old and be cared for by nobody until we're 110? These are issues that countries like Germany already have problems with.

Looking at my own case study - I am 30 and have 1 child who will thankfully replace me. Most of my friends don't have any and most don't WANT any. Who is replacing and supporting them? I do not call them selfish because this is their choice and they have a right to this choice. And because of this, someone having 5 is not only bloody unusual but useful. So either let them be or be thankful that not everyone has decided to let us all die out. Funnily enough my friends are quite happy about this. They don't think anyone is being selfish. They enjoy their lifestyle and admit they are not perfect for the environment but will still do their bit.

1. The fact that people who use this argument never wanted children in the first place. Good for you, but this isn't really a sacrifice.

There is so much hypocrisy. Another thing that is terrible for the environment is air travel, meat consumption, food waste, plastic consumption, fast fashion. These are all TERRIBLE things that can be avoided and are not useful. Yet continuing the population is?

So get off your high horses people!

We ALL need to reduce something. If you don't feel the need to have kids, brilliant! Make sure you also live your life as well green as you can. You feel the need to procreate? Great! Also do what you can.

Yes the entire world is overpopulated. However at some point all these people are going to die. People DO NOT LIVE FOREVER! Every other disgusting thing we're doing to out planet sticks around. Plastic waste being one tiny part of it. The effects or air travel. Meat consumption (which is one of the issues of overpopulation. These people who don't agree with too many children are all vegan right?) There are so many things we need to be changing and yet one thing we do need is people to support it to happen. Do you expect to be looked after when you're ill? Do you want someone to farm your food? If yes, then you must understand that we need people to do that.

Think of it as a room with a door at each end. People come in at one end and leave at the other. All the time more and more people come in and fewer people leave due to living longer. The room will get more and more crowded, it makes no difference that everyone who comes in will leave at some point.

R u ok hun?

Yea I agree. Although it's not ideal to have 5, 6, 7 children it's down the the individual persons choice. I just commented on the 'expecting a 5th' post. One poster stood out. I've seen her user name on a few pregnancy/ttc posts. Calling the op stupid/selfish etc. But its like she hovers around for these posts waiting for her moment to spout how superior she is and how dim people with children are. Down right bizarre behaviour I think. She's had comments removed by MNHQ, what does that tell you.
If you choose not have to have children, great, if you do, great. Neither one of those choices makes you better than people. It's a debate that will never end and will always create arguments.

I think having children is selfish (although I do have two)

Who does anyone have children for, if not themself?

Does anyone have a child for the economy or to offset childfree people's choice/circumstances?
No, they have a child because they want to.
Also, your child/ children and their offspring may/will fly, use plastics, wear nappies, drive cars. You don't know how many children your child will go on to have or the effect on the environment.

Having children has made me selfless in my everyday life because I come last. But the act of having them served me me me

Are you glad you got that all off your chest?

@SerenDippitty But why is there a need to berate the occasional person in the UK who has more than 1 or 2? Surely there are so many other issues to go first? It doesn't answer the need for those people either.

Unless you plan on going over to countries like China and enforcing another 1 child policy, stopping the occasional person have 4 or 5 in this country is futile and unhelpful. Especially when you see the comments they get. It doesn't answer the point about all the other things you can do instead and the fact that the childless people are also destroying the planet whether or not your next door neighbour has 5 kids. There is also the fact that reproducing is a strong human desire and need for many.

I can't stand those types of people and their arguments are always ridiculous.

If those 5 kids all became surgeons would you refuse treatment?

Depends how many surely?

1-2 reasonable

6 or 20 odd like the Radfords unreasonable

Ugh this is so stupid. Yeh, ok then hun. You do you.

Surely from an environmental pov, it would be a good thing if the human race did die out?

It is true that having children is the single most harmful thing we can do for the environment. I wouldn't describe it as selfish, as you say, there are other reasons to want to continue the population but you can't argue it's not bad for the environment.

If those 5 kids all became surgeons would you refuse treatment?

How like is it they will all be surgeons? I’m going to guess not very likely

They might be PM or cancer, but that’s unlikely too

@P1nkHeartLovesCake if everyone did that then of course that would be terrible. The thing is they don't. (My main concern is how on earth they can look after them all!)

How the tables turned! Childfree were called selfish a year ago😂

Also is it a class thing then? Assuming those with 5 kids aren't going to be useful?

If I told you I came from a family of doctors and there is a strong chance my child becomes a doctor, does that change things?

@OmgThereAreNoPlanesAboveMeNow I agree!

Funny how even in this day and age women are still being criticised for their reproductive choices. 👍

What @SerenDippitty said.

Reducing air travel, being vegan, using less plastic, recycling and reusing clothes are all very important. As is reducing the human population, there are too many of us and we will kill this planet and everything on it if our population continues to grow.
We plan on having one, I think it's important that the people who care about the planet do contribute to the next generation.

@babyllama I may get flamed for this but yes, unemployed useless people, with criminal records living of the system with no intention of changing do tend to have a lot of children.

Surely having children is intrinsically selfish?

I mean, I don't know a single person who has children for a reason other than "because I want to".

Come old age, those without children will be perfectly happy utilising the services and skills set of the next generation.
Without them we would all be doomed to a terrible old age.

I agree OP
Having children is one of the least selfish things you can do. You are investing your time and money into the next generation, which would not exist unless some people had children.
And, it would not be good for the environment for humans to die out. We are part of the environment as a peak predator. If we die out then the entire ecosystem will collapse with many more species going extinct.

Most of my friends don't have any and most don't WANT any. Who is replacing and supporting them? I do not call them selfish because this is their choice and they have a right to this choice.

But you’ve just implied it by saying they have no one to support or replace them. Your smug superiority over them stands out.

The talk of plastics etc, makes no sense, as the more people there are, the more waste products and damage to the environment there is.

If those 5 kids all became surgeons would you refuse treatment?

If those five kids became drug addicts would you still be happy that they are replacing the five people that they’re replacing?

Have kids, don’t have kids, it’s up to you, but you’re the one trying to justify your decisions and implying that those that don’t have a child to replace them is selfish. Such a stupid argument as no one needs ‘replaced’. Also a disgusting argument as you’ve implied, even if it’s unintentional, that those who can’t have kids and will have no one to replace them, are taking up needed space.

“don't know a single person who has children for a reason other than "because I want to".

Wanting to do something doesn’t make it intrinsically selfish. Most charity volunteers are doing it because they want to. Nurses and doctors choose that career because they want to. You donate money to a cause because you want to.

I have no idea what you mean, that you don't agree with a debate. It sounds more like you don't agree with one side of a debate, i.e. those that argue having children is selfish. And you've thought about some arguments against that position. And you've gone as far as presenting these arguments in a new post on social media.

So I can only conclude that you are, in fact, in favour of the debate.

This is a TAAT.

OP - lot sof quite reasonable points were made on the other thread which you have mashed into a rant i your OP.

Of course having children is selfish. 90% of people have children because they WANT them. If they only had children when it was good for the child then many children would not be born.

But having a lot of children in this day and age, when each child in the west consumes so much of the world's resources, then yes, that is particularly selfish.

We should be making the same fuss about long haul holidays and fast fashion.
Just because we aren't, that doesn't mean that it is OK to have 5 kids.