I don't agree with the 'having children is selfish' debate.

[BabyLlamaZen]

Most intelligent (and even just vaguely worldly) people are aware of the importance of preserving our environment but I am sick of seeing so many self-righteous posts about how having children is the worst most selfish thing you can do for the planet. And this is from people who live their everyday lives exactly as they please but think not having children or only having 1 makes them wonderful martyrs.

1. The selfish thing doesn't even make sense. Yes the entire world is overpopulated. However at some point all these people are going to die. People DO NOT LIVE FOREVER! Every other disgusting thing we're doing to out planet sticks around. Plastic waste being one tiny part of it. The effects or air travel. Meat consumption (which is one of the issues of overpopulation. These people who don't agree with too many children are all vegan right?) There are so many things we need to be changing and yet one thing we do need is people to support it to happen. Do you expect to be looked after when you're ill? Do you want someone to farm your food? If yes, then you must understand that we need people to do that.

We cannot control what happens in other countries. I agree that some other countries are overpopulated. We can just control what happens in our own country. We are actually an ageing population. So really we need to kill off the old people right? Oh wait, no we don't like that. 🤷‍♀️

At the same time there are concerns about the large number of millennials and generations below who are just not having children. One of the main drivers of brexit was to 'take back control' and stop immigration. So reduced immigration and no more children So are we expecting to all grow old and be cared for by nobody until we're 110? These are issues that countries like Germany already have problems with.

Looking at my own case study - I am 30 and have 1 child who will thankfully replace me. Most of my friends don't have any and most don't WANT any. Who is replacing and supporting them? I do not call them selfish because this is their choice and they have a right to this choice. And because of this, someone having 5 is not only bloody unusual but useful. So either let them be or be thankful that not everyone has decided to let us all die out. Funnily enough my friends are quite happy about this. They don't think anyone is being selfish. They enjoy their lifestyle and admit they are not perfect for the environment but will still do their bit.

1. The fact that people who use this argument never wanted children in the first place. Good for you, but this isn't really a sacrifice.

There is so much hypocrisy. Another thing that is terrible for the environment is air travel, meat consumption, food waste, plastic consumption, fast fashion. These are all TERRIBLE things that can be avoided and are not useful. Yet continuing the population is?

So get off your high horses people!

We ALL need to reduce something. If you don't feel the need to have kids, brilliant! Make sure you also live your life as well green as you can. You feel the need to procreate? Great! Also do what you can.

I don't think it is particularly selfish. What worries me is that women / men are increasingly using this argument because it's more socially acceptable to say you don't want kids on 'ethical' grounds rather than just admiring they don't want them.

@taraRoo I also find that incredibly annoying.

It's worth looking at this page. Especially the chart of world population growth in the last hundred years or so. It's quite scary.

www.worldometers.info/world-population/

However, in my opinion, the only selfish parents are those who have kids without thinking about how they (not the rest of us) will pay for and take care of them until they become independent. Far too many of those I think.

@BabyLlamaZen I genuinely don't know - I do know that population increase globally is not being driven by countries like the UK, but I have no clue what the likelihood of a global population decline is right now. There are so many countries where large families are prized or where contraception simply is not widely used and/or available, it may not be likely but I haven't read anything specifically about that recently tbh. It is a fascinating subject, though!

Don't debate it then

I for one would like 3 children. I don't think that's any worse than anyone else. I have 2 friends who have long term partners and they don't want any, so I'm doing it for them.

Oh give over! Lol!

@Tellmetruth4 really?

What worries me is that women / men are increasingly using this argument because it's more socially acceptable to say you don't want kids on 'ethical' grounds rather than just admiring they don't want them.

But people were and still are called selfish for saying they didn't want children. Saying it's for environmental reasons is a reaction to that.

@12345ct

Where is the data confirming that?

The reason we cannot let 3rd world countries die from hunger and else is because we have a duty of care to them. I assume you understand why? Because we are the reason why they are poor in the first place, we have stolen their land, people and resources and made them entirely reliable on us for survival and unable to afford their own people. We owe it to them to help them, and it would be more right to get rid of us (Europeans) than get rid of them poorer countries. 3rd world countries, also, for the most part, have no access to education, let alone proper knowledge of ecology and the impact of humans on the planet, on the other hand we do. I can't hold a woman in a small village of Africa sheltered from the world who haven't had an education to the same standard as a 30 yo professional in London.
When someone knows what they do is wrong but do it anyway, surely that's called being selfish? It's okay to be selfish or do something selfish but at least let's not pretend it isn't selfish.

Right it was 9 siblings, but like I said, whether it's 9 doctors or 9 mailmen the impact on the planet is the same. In fact doctors are worse because their sole purpose is to prolong our life and keep us alive (and sometimes like with IVF, help people bringing in new lives), meaning they participate even more actively in stretching and extending our (negative) impact on the planet. For the planet, better 9 drug addicts that will end up taking their life early than 9 doctors who will keep humans alive and consuming way past the time they should.
Again, doctors only benefit us humans. So saying stuff like '' my 5 kids might turn out to be doctors'' changes fuck all and in fact makes it worse (from an ecological POV).

@SerenDippitty

I didn't say that everyone should be approved for adoption. I just said that in an ideal world where the planet would come first, people who can physically and mentally take on other people kids who have no one to look after them would do it and look after them as their own while the ones who can't/aren't willing to and can't reproduce would just accept their fate and find other ways to feel the hole that not having children might bring. Again, there is no real logical reason that justify IVF in an already overpopulated world except a selfish need to want to spread your genes? Again it's up to people to decide for themselves what they do with their life, I can of course understand the will to have a biological child but technically and if one is really in tune with what's right for the planet, there really isn't any reason as to why IVF should even be a thing in the current world and if you go for what would be right for the planet, the correct thing would be to get rid of the option.

@EveryoneLoves09876

Please, your choice to have children, benefits no one but you, people who have kids, aren't doing it for people who don't. We don't need more kids, in fact we need less, as we are already overpopulated. Your argument might have made sense centuries ago, but right now you are just telling yourself this to feel philanthropic, and failing.
Other people have already made up for your friends lack of kids, so feel reassured that you can stick to just one and not fail your friends nor the planet, except you won't, because you want 3, which is ''fine'' but don't pretend you are doing it for me or anyone else who don't have children. Nobody asked you to have kids for people who happen to be childless and definitely not the planet. You don't have to justify your choice of having 3 or more kids, simply because there is no real justification to it other than " I wanted to". It's valid, it's still selfish but it's valid, just don't pretend you were or will be doing any sort of ''good action'' by reproducing.