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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I don't agree with the 'having children is selfish' debate.

209 replies

BabyLlamaZen · 18/05/2020 11:40

Most intelligent (and even just vaguely worldly) people are aware of the importance of preserving our environment but I am sick of seeing so many self-righteous posts about how having children is the worst most selfish thing you can do for the planet. And this is from people who live their everyday lives exactly as they please but think not having children or only having 1 makes them wonderful martyrs.

  1. The selfish thing doesn't even make sense. Yes the entire world is overpopulated. However at some point all these people are going to die. People DO NOT LIVE FOREVER! Every other disgusting thing we're doing to out planet sticks around. Plastic waste being one tiny part of it. The effects or air travel. Meat consumption (which is one of the issues of overpopulation. These people who don't agree with too many children are all vegan right?) There are so many things we need to be changing and yet one thing we do need is people to support it to happen. Do you expect to be looked after when you're ill? Do you want someone to farm your food? If yes, then you must understand that we need people to do that.

We cannot control what happens in other countries. I agree that some other countries are overpopulated. We can just control what happens in our own country. We are actually an ageing population. So really we need to kill off the old people right? Oh wait, no we don't like that. 🤷‍♀️

At the same time there are concerns about the large number of millennials and generations below who are just not having children. One of the main drivers of brexit was to 'take back control' and stop immigration. So reduced immigration and no more children Hmm So are we expecting to all grow old and be cared for by nobody until we're 110? These are issues that countries like Germany already have problems with.

Looking at my own case study - I am 30 and have 1 child who will thankfully replace me. Most of my friends don't have any and most don't WANT any. Who is replacing and supporting them? I do not call them selfish because this is their choice and they have a right to this choice. And because of this, someone having 5 is not only bloody unusual but useful. So either let them be or be thankful that not everyone has decided to let us all die out. Funnily enough my friends are quite happy about this. They don't think anyone is being selfish. They enjoy their lifestyle and admit they are not perfect for the environment but will still do their bit.

  1. The fact that people who use this argument never wanted children in the first place. Good for you, but this isn't really a sacrifice.

There is so much hypocrisy. Another thing that is terrible for the environment is air travel, meat consumption, food waste, plastic consumption, fast fashion. These are all TERRIBLE things that can be avoided and are not useful. Yet continuing the population is?

So get off your high horses people!

We ALL need to reduce something. If you don't feel the need to have kids, brilliant! Make sure you also live your life as well green as you can. You feel the need to procreate? Great! Also do what you can.

OP posts:
T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/05/2020 12:39

That’s fucking disgusting planDeRaccordemebt. Suggesting that a poster should kill themselves is a step too far. You should be ashamed of that comment and apologise. You’ve no idea what someone is going through and how a comment like that can push them over the edge.

cologne4711 · 18/05/2020 12:39

I had children because I wanted to contribute to the future, and because it is good for society to have a younger generation than mine. Children are an essential aspect to being an adult, and giving back to society

Nice try but no. People have kids because they want them. Do you really believe you are doing society a favour when your kids block a whole pavement with their scooters or ride a trolley into the back of someone in a supermarket or play Peppa Pig on loudspeaker in a restaurant?

A child may grow up to be someone really influential and useful like David Attenborough but in most cases will just be a pointless speck i the history of the universe (sorry but it's true). And at worst someone really damaging like Hitler.

Pelleas · 18/05/2020 12:40

PlanDeRaccordment You seem to think you've played a clever trump card, but there are already plenty of people in favour of making voluntary self-euthanasia legal in the UK.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/05/2020 12:40

Exactly Santana.
I’m just sick of being called selfish for having DCs. It’s not selfish to have children. Just like it is not selfish to live out your lifespan.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/05/2020 12:41

This reply has been deleted

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PuntoEBasta · 18/05/2020 12:42

I have two children, @PlanDeRaccordement.

I am genuinely disturbed that you feel it is a logical conclusion to suggest that I kill myself in response to some fairly mild and uncontested statistics.

Pelleas · 18/05/2020 12:43

Voluntary self-euthanasia and suicide aren't the same thing, Plan.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/05/2020 12:44

Cologne
Tell that to the parents of Greta Thunberg.
Point is, we don’t know which children will contribute to society. But the facts are the most children will be net contributors. The world needs famous people like Greta, but it also needs bin men and sewage plant engineers too.

Yearcat13 · 18/05/2020 12:44

I think having children is an act of egotistical selfishness. Desire for owns genes to keep going, large families being the ultimate selfish act. I know quite a few here in Ireland. Benefits here are good, five kids child benefit and two unemployed parents is about 3k a month. Hard not to judge when you're children by choice and work in the public service all your life. And its not an exception here in Ireland it's a very open, transparent and common decision to live off the state with large families. I personally do judge.

WeirdAndPissedOff · 18/05/2020 12:47

I'll preface this by saying that I do quietly judge those who have many multiples of children (think 8+), but I also think that judgy comments towards those who already have kids is unproductive and makes you a bit of a twat. (It's not like you can put the kids back). I also don't agree with judging people for having more children than you when both parties have the amount of children they wanted. (Whether that be 0, 2, or 6). I think it's easier to justify what you are doing by looking at what others are doing that you're not. If you don't want children, you can say you've "earned" air travel, meat eating etc. At the end of the day, people have as many children as they choose to have. (Infertility notwithstanding). I may well be wrong, but I very much doubt there's many people out there who desperately want children but haven't had any because of environmental or population reasons only.
I've also seen the argument crop up that if those who care about the environment cease to have children, while those who don't keep having children, this will have a detrimental outcome long term. (Which is straying scarily close to eugenics and the "right" and "wrong" people having children territory, but still worth a passing thought).

However that doesn't invalidate the argument itself. Having children is a different kettle of fish to other things, as you're creating a whole new person with their own carbon footprint, possibly for the
next 80-100 years. If you live in a developed country, very few lifestyle changes could come close to compensating for that. Not only that, but the impact of having one child extends onto their descendants. Some might not have any children, some might have 5 or 6, but if you average it out to the 2.4 (less the .4 to make it easier and attempt to account for those lost in chidhood), 2 children in this generation will become 4 in the next, 8 in the one after that, and so on.
And supporting the aging population, whilst definitely a valid point which needs considering, also feels a bit like a Ponzi scheme to me - when the children who are born to support our elderly reach old age, they will need supporting, and so on, using each increasingly large generation to support the one before. It's also (again) putting short term human needs before what's best long term, for humans and the planet.

I think the other thing you're missing is that we all know people will continue to have children. You speak as if it's all or nothing, as if everyone is being advised to stop breeding. We know most people will continue having as many children as they want, so if just a few stop and think before having one, or one more, then that can only be a good thing.

I think overall, it's just something to bear in mind. We (collectively) do need to make some pretty drastic changes to our lifestyles and choices, and as a rule we (collectively) are not doing so, because we enjoy our lifestyles, freedoms and choices and so it's easier to label others as virtue-signalling or preachy than take action ourselves. I don't expect this to change any time soon (and I'll admit I'm not doing as much as I can, and need to make a much bigger effort). But our current lifestyles are not sustainable. Our current population level and growth rates are also not sustainable.

Having children is inherently selfish. We do it because of our biological urges, or because we want to, very rarely because we think we can benefit a child, but rather because a child will benefit us. What the environmental status does do is take away any claim that we have that reproducing is beneficial to society as a while. Yes, some people need to have children to keep humanity going, but more than enough people are already doing that. When we make a choice to have a child, we therefore do so knowing that that child will benefit only us and our immediate family, and be a detriment to the planet and environment. (There will be some exceptions, but on balance of probabilities our children will probably not cure cancer, or win a Nobel prize, etc).

madcatladyforever · 18/05/2020 12:48

I don't want to be "looked after" when I get old I want to exercise my right to euthanasia. I've worked in enough nursing homes to know I don't want that for myself.
Somebody having 5 kids who then go on to have three each that's 15 and so on and so forth all consuming non stop, using resources, making tons of rubbish and encouraging unsustainable growth.
The real reason for people having loads of children is because they can and because they don't give a shit how it affects anyone else.
At least be honest.

Truthpact · 18/05/2020 12:48

It technically is selfish to have children. You have a child because you want one, not to be #578629 of nurses in the world. You don't have a child to do a specific job (well some parents do but their kids tend to end up going off the rails). For all you know, your kid will end up on drugs, living on the streets.

Really the only way to save the planet is fir humans to die out, and that's just the truth of the matter. Recycling won't help, cutting emissions won't happen, but no more people would help. But unless a disease kills us off its not going to happen either. I imagine it will just be in a hundred or so years time (maybe less) where resources start to run out and the poor will die first. That's why I don't want children, don't really want to subject them or any future grandchildren to that future.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/05/2020 12:49

Punto,

The statistic of 58.6 tonnes of carbon is not mild because it reflects erasing the life of a child. That statistic is the CO2 a human generates merely by existing and living. I find it offensive in the extreme to talk about a human life in terms of carbon generated. I was not suggesting you personally kill your self, i was pointing out that your argument which is carbon centric and all about reducing carbon by erasing a child could also be accomplished by environmental activists erasing themselves. It’s just as disturbing to me to talk about killing other people’s children, as it is to talk about existing humans ending their lives early to reduce their carbon output.

NotACleverName · 18/05/2020 12:51

Children are an essential aspect to being an adult, and giving back to society.

Hmm
PuntoEBasta · 18/05/2020 12:52

You clearly have no intention of apologising for your despicable words.

It says a great deal about you that you interpreted my post as an argument for the erasure of a child. I have two children and I consider myself lucky to have them, but before having them I balanced the positive impact that I hope they will one day have on the world with the impact that they will have on the planet in their lifetimes.

Your perspective is truly warped.

PersephoneandHades · 18/05/2020 12:53

I find this whole idea of having kids due to selfishness really funny, because it’s absolutely true but the people who say it seem to think I’ve never clocked this before? Of course it is selfish, but there is nothing wrong with that.

We will go our whole lives putting ourselves first in day to day life, what would be the point in living if we never did anything to make ourselves happy? As a PP said, charity workers could be classed as selfish due to the fact that they do their job because it makes them feel good about themselves. Is that an ego-centric thought? Yes. Is there anything wrong with it being ego-centric? No.

And all this talk about selfishness is coming from people who live in developed countries with every advantage under the sun and I bet almost all of them are middle/upper class. It ignores the fact that many societies rely on large families to care for one another, because they cannot afford childminders, care homes and bank loans.

The science also dictates that our population size is not the issue anyway, it is our way of life that is destroying the planet. This is why families of 10 in a developing country will create way less emissions in their life than a family of 3/4 in a developed country.

And do even not get me started on the moral implications of someone trying to assert ownership over my reproductive system. With this blaming of large families for the climate crisis it will once again be women who are blamed for all the worlds woes, judged on the street if they have a baby bump.

In this long rambling way, I agree with you OP, lol.

Peggysgettingcrazy · 18/05/2020 12:54

No matter unpalatable it may be...the simple fact is Thanos was right.

Do any of us want to volunteer for us or pr family to be wiped out? Of course we don't.

Doesn't mean, it wouldn't be best for the planet.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/05/2020 12:57

Weird,

Your argument is circular:
Having children is inherently selfish.
Yes, some people need to have children to keep humanity going, but more than enough people are already doing that.
When we make a choice to have a child, we therefore do so knowing that that child will benefit only us and our immediate family, and be a detriment to the planet and environment.

Those in U.K. who do have children are all part of the “some people” who are keeping humanity going, because when you look at the birth rates for the U.K. and how they are below replacement levels. There is this assumption on here that everyone in the UK having children is having children exceeding replacement levels and contributing to increased population. This is not the case. The U.K. population is only increasing due to immigration. Not birth rates.

Winterwoollies · 18/05/2020 12:58

I was told I was ‘beyond selfish’ for not wanting to have any children at all. Now that I do not understand at all!

LaurieFairyCake · 18/05/2020 12:58

No, we have children for our own needs

We can import people through immigration for everything

Sillysop92 · 18/05/2020 12:59

If it selfish to raise children, to have a lovely family life and great kids, then I’m vv happy to be called selfish. 🤷🏻‍♀️

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/05/2020 13:01

Punto
“You clearly have no intention of apologising for your despicable words.”

Could say the same about you, measuring each of my children’s lives in terms of 58.6 tonnes of carbon in the same sentence as talking about going careless. Disgusting to talk about a human life like a car or a dietary choice.

Pelleas · 18/05/2020 13:02

who are keeping humanity going

The problem is that 'keeping humanity going' is at the expense of every other species on the planet, and the planet itself.

Unless all humans are prepared to revert to a much more primitive style of existence - and I mean primitive - no electricity, no use of gas in any form, no motorised transport - we will destroy the planet if 'humanity is kept going'.

PuntoEBasta · 18/05/2020 13:02

I'm going to step away. I truly cannot engage with your world view.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/05/2020 13:02

Winterwoolies
I think both having children or not having children is not selfish. I think it is wrong to attach a judgemental label to either choice.