I don't agree with the 'having children is selfish' debate.

[BabyLlamaZen]

Most intelligent (and even just vaguely worldly) people are aware of the importance of preserving our environment but I am sick of seeing so many self-righteous posts about how having children is the worst most selfish thing you can do for the planet. And this is from people who live their everyday lives exactly as they please but think not having children or only having 1 makes them wonderful martyrs.

1. The selfish thing doesn't even make sense. Yes the entire world is overpopulated. However at some point all these people are going to die. People DO NOT LIVE FOREVER! Every other disgusting thing we're doing to out planet sticks around. Plastic waste being one tiny part of it. The effects or air travel. Meat consumption (which is one of the issues of overpopulation. These people who don't agree with too many children are all vegan right?) There are so many things we need to be changing and yet one thing we do need is people to support it to happen. Do you expect to be looked after when you're ill? Do you want someone to farm your food? If yes, then you must understand that we need people to do that.

We cannot control what happens in other countries. I agree that some other countries are overpopulated. We can just control what happens in our own country. We are actually an ageing population. So really we need to kill off the old people right? Oh wait, no we don't like that. 🤷‍♀️

At the same time there are concerns about the large number of millennials and generations below who are just not having children. One of the main drivers of brexit was to 'take back control' and stop immigration. So reduced immigration and no more children So are we expecting to all grow old and be cared for by nobody until we're 110? These are issues that countries like Germany already have problems with.

Looking at my own case study - I am 30 and have 1 child who will thankfully replace me. Most of my friends don't have any and most don't WANT any. Who is replacing and supporting them? I do not call them selfish because this is their choice and they have a right to this choice. And because of this, someone having 5 is not only bloody unusual but useful. So either let them be or be thankful that not everyone has decided to let us all die out. Funnily enough my friends are quite happy about this. They don't think anyone is being selfish. They enjoy their lifestyle and admit they are not perfect for the environment but will still do their bit.

1. The fact that people who use this argument never wanted children in the first place. Good for you, but this isn't really a sacrifice.

There is so much hypocrisy. Another thing that is terrible for the environment is air travel, meat consumption, food waste, plastic consumption, fast fashion. These are all TERRIBLE things that can be avoided and are not useful. Yet continuing the population is?

So get off your high horses people!

We ALL need to reduce something. If you don't feel the need to have kids, brilliant! Make sure you also live your life as well green as you can. You feel the need to procreate? Great! Also do what you can.

Everyone knows having children causes far more harm to the environment than anything else. The information is out there, no point getting worked up with a load of excuses.

I agree single vs couple will not be as simple as 50%, thatone but you have to consider it's more often single vs family of 4 or more per household. I don't think a single person uses 75% of the resources that a family uses. I don't think a couple uses 100% of the resources that a family uses - but that's what they pay.

As long as people take care of and provide for the children they have, I couldn't care less how many they have. On the other side of the coin, I hope people don't judge those who don't have children for not "contributing" or for being strange or pitiable in some way. Though I don't have children of my own, I don't want humanity to be wiped out (and believe there's something seriously wrong with anyone who does, tbh.)

I wouldn't tell someone they shouldn't have children for the sake of the planet, nor do I wish to be lectured or derided because I eat meat, use plastic, drive a car, etc. It's no-one else's business how I live my life, so long as I abide by the laws of the land. (That's where I see most of the anti-children comments. Person A wants to drastically change the way other people live their lives, then Person B comes along and smugly expresses the hope that Person A hasn't killed Mother Earth by procreating. )

My best advice is to just live your life as you see fit and ignore everyone else.

In countries were people stopped having kids like Italy they have an awful problem. We need young adults entering the workforce, paying taxes and funding people’s state pensions. Also we need nurses, doctors, carers, bankers, cleaners, refuse collectors, teachers, sewerage and water workers. Emergency services, hairdressers - who will do all this when we are all old?

who will do all this when we are all old?

The retirement age in the UK has already risen to 68 for people starting work now, and it's likely to keep rising so the short answer is - we will.

Feefsie

In countries were people stopped having kids like Italy they have an awful problem. We need young adults entering the workforce, paying taxes and funding people’s state pensions. Also we need nurses, doctors, carers, bankers, cleaners, refuse collectors, teachers, sewerage and water workers. Emergency services, hairdressers - who will do all this when we are all old?

The youth unemployment rate in Italy was over 30%, even before Corona virus. There were no jobs for young people and the wages are very low. There aren't millions of jobs with nobody to fill them.

In Japan, another country with a very low birth rate, robots and technology are being used to help old people. This removes the need for lots of human carers.

Mother Nature will always win. The answer is not to keep reproducing exponentially so that we can afford pensions.

The economic model isn't sustainable and will have to change. Nobody ever seems to stop and think what kind of world their offspring might have to cope with in the future.

But denial and 'I'm alright Jack' is rife.

Shouldn't we be focusing on the bigger carbon picture ie the role played by massive corporations, capitalism etc rather than the individual who decides - or decides not - to have a child? It seems to play right into the hands of those who could really make a difference if we're all directing our ire at each other and not looking at them

@Pelleas what about when everyone reaches 68? 😂

@trellishead Nope. People have children alone is not destroying the planet. Also ignored all the other points.

If you want the population to die out, are you also happy to sign your own death warrant and sacrifice everything you do in life to fix the planet whilst you're here? Of course not.

Just more hypocrisy. Oh well. You try.

I think the reason people have started to get a hard time on forums like this about having large families is that as a society we have only recently started to pay attention to how bad the overpopulation and climate problem actually is.

I'm sure it's not very nice for those people, but in my opinion it needs to become less normalised to have more than two or three children.

@BabyLlamaZen have you considered that not all children grow up to be doctors, nurses, pay taxes?

Some people are also raising criminals (who will live in prison on the taxpayers money), or their children will move abroad after getting an education funded by my taxes (therefore not contributing to me being old), or to be rich tax evaders or many other things.

The argument that we need people to have children is frankly stupid. Unless you're raising your child to be a working, tax paying adult who will only ever work in the UK (which I assume you can't really control), then yeah it's selfish and you have kids because you want to, end of.

I understand that you want kids OP but the truth is there's nothing selfless about it. And if you ever do end up being a single mother of 5 don't come to Mumsnet saying you couldn't help your situation and it's not your fault that you can't work, and the state should help you because you are ENTITLED to children. Just nope.

I note that in your opening rant to this TAAT you neglected to mention that you were responding to a thread in Chat where the OP was coming in for some criticism for her fifth child. Not a single person on that thread suggested that a 'replacement-level' fertility rate would be a problem, which is currently approximately 2.1 children per woman.

Most of our choices in life are selfish.

@BabyLlamaZen You're optimistic if you think people starting their working lives now will retire at 68. In 50 years time it will be everyone working until they either become incapacitated or die.

I look forward to a time when it is considered selfish and socially irresponsible to have large families. I think opinions are slowly changing, and not before time.

Perhaps schools have a role to play in educating children on he environmental damage caused by overpopulation. My DS had a friend who was one of 5. Following a school discussion on climate change, he told my Ds he would not want a large family himself.

I didn't real beyond a few lines, but I agree with you that having children is not selfish.

What I do find selfish, is having kids you can't afford, choosing a crap dad for them who couldn't care a toss about them, giving them a rubbish start in life with extremely limited opportunities living in poverty. I wouldn't want to be born into a life like that.

I had children for entirely selfish reasons. I got married for entirely selfish reasons (not completely unrelated ).

Having taken the decision to be married I have made sure I've done it properly, which involves some things I wouldn't necessarily have chosen to do Right Now. Similarly, having given birth to children I have made sure I've done it properly, which has meant I've spent the last two decades doing things I definitely wouldn't have chosen to do otherwise.

My actions as a life-partner and as a parent are not particularly selfish; but my decisions to enter those states were entirely so.

Forget the environment, having children is selfish, from start to finish. It's what you want, so that makes it selfish.

People have children alone is not destroying the planet.

People are destroying the planet. More people = more destruction.

Why does it bother you so much? It’s like the thread of the person saying people shouldn’t make her feel bad that flying is bad for the environment.

It inescapably is, just as having kids is. No one is stopping you though OP so crack on.

It’s not worth getting upset about.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t be able to have children, just don’t pretend it isn’t selfish.

What you need to do OP is not care if other people think you’re selfish. There’s no plans to ban selfishness or make it illegal so just accept it and move on I reckon..

Exactly, why is it so upsetting to confront the fact that having children is extremely selfish? Humans are selfish, just look at, well, every single one of us!

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you disagree with. Your children and grandchildren are the ones who are going to suffer the most with projected food and water shortages, heat waves and possible war over limited resources. If you want to condemn your offspring to that then it's your choice. I think that is incredibly selfish but hey not my children, not my problem.

I have read the first page and hate some of the arguments used. All people are worth the same. Doctor or drug addict. We need every type of person and problem in society. I know many doctors who cause pain to their loved ones for whatever reason. And someone addicted to drugs can bring joy.
As for the kids is selfish argument, I see what the OP means. What is the point in preserving the planet if not for all life to enjoy it, humans included? We need to be less selfish in our daily lives and lifestyles, but we do need a future generation. If we all had one child or no children we would die out. I know overpopulation is a problem, but not in this country.
But all human lives are valuable. And no one should feel morally superior.

I'm childfree. I'm sick of being judged as "selfish" for my decision. Surely it would be more selfish to bring a child into the world when I don't know whether I would be an absolutely great mother and love it every day of its life? The world does need another baby; one wants a baby. Therefore, that's ultimately a selfish decision.