To refuse to have a corona vaccine?

[EasyPleasey]

A lot of people seem to be waiting for a corona vaccine. However I just dont trust any vaccine 'rushed' out, especially after all the mistakes made so far in this crisis. I would rather catch the actual virus and take my chances, as for most people it is a mild illness but who knows what the vaccine may do.

I know quite a few other people who say they will refuse any vaccine for this. I have had all the other vaccines, as have my children.

AIBU?

@bumbleymummy

Many many vulnerable people can't be vaccinated or, like me, a vaccine is only half as effective for them. And considering no vaccine is 100% effective this often leave me with less than 50% protection despite being fully vaccinated.

Frankly we should do. See my earlier post about Australia. They don't allow state school places for those unvaccinated without a reasonable excuse (e.g. medical condition, allergy etc). It is part of being in a civilised society that we all take measures to protect those most vulnerable amongst us.

There are already many people who by your definition are 'coerced' into being vaccinated. Doctors, nurses, pharmacists all have to provide full vaccination history. As do international diplomats. Anyone sent to work in a foreign country has to have the vaccines required for entry to that country. Pilots, people in the military, carers. The list goes on. Do you think all these jobs should cease to require vaccines because the people doing the jobs are being 'coerced' into being vaccinated in order to fufil their jobs?

No way will I have the vaccine

@RoosterPie Chickenpox is one example. We’re not guilt tripping people and forcing them into getting a vaccine they don’t want in order to protect people for whom CP would be more dangerous.

@letitgolego

I strongly disagree with you on that. I don’t think anyone should be forced to be vaccinated. It’s also worth noting that many people don’t realise they can’t/shouldn’t be vaccinated until they’ve had the vaccine and reacted badly to it - it’s not always a case of them being anti-vax in general. I haven’t said anything about coercion (perhaps you are confusing me with another poster?) I actually do disagree with compulsory vaccination for certain jobs but people can choose if they want to take the job or not. That is quite different to denying people their basic right to education. There have been problems with certain vaccines that have ultimately been withdrawn - either for safety or lack of effectiveness. These DNA/mRNA vaccines that are being developed have not been widely used before. I think it’s perfectly understandable that people will have reservations about them until they can see the longer term effects. That does not make anyone selfish or anti-vaxx in general.

@bumbleymummy

'I actually do disagree with compulsory vaccination for certain jobs'

Please tell me what jobs which you require vaccines shouldn't do? Considering that these all require them for the safety of the individual and those they're working with

I don’t think chicken pox is in any way comparable to covid in terms of the risks posed. I agree with everything @letitgolego says.

I still think in practice it won’t be a vaccine rolled out to everyone anyway. I just think that in principle, if the evidence suggests that’s the best way to protect everyone’s lives and reinstate people’s freedoms then it is selfish to refuse.

@letitgolego Any of them. I don’t agree with compulsory vaccination at all. Vaccines are voluntary -Many medical professionals choose not to get the annual flu vaccine for example. Same with the armed forces - they are offered the vaccines when they need to travel to certain countries but they are not compulsory.

@bumbleymummy

Seriously? So you think doctors working with immunosuppressed people and tiny babies shouldn't be vaccinated so as to protect the people they're working with? Do you think carers who work with the elderly, for whom chickenpox or similar would kill them, should be allowed to not be vaccinated and thus risk passing on and killing their vulnerable clients?

The armed forces do have some compulsory vaccines. Because if you get measles or yellow fever in the field you are pretty much dead, and put the rest of you team at risk too.

What about compulsory vaccines for travel?

Do you think this Is forced vaccination too? As without the vaccination you're not allowed to travel, so it essentially forces people to be vaccinated if they want to travel.

@letitgolego
I didn’t say they shouldn’t be vaccinated. I said I disagree with it being compulsory. I know quite a few medical professionals who don’t have the flu vaccine and it would be ridiculous if they weren’t allowed to practise because of that.

Most adults have had CP as children and are immune so no, I don’t think they should have to be vaccinated in order to be a carer.

If the rest of your team are vaccinated then you’re not putting them at risk. People should be allowed to weigh up the risk of the disease and the vaccine and make their choice. Most will probably choose to be vaccinated but it should be their decision - not forced on them.

There are very few countries which actually require vaccination to travel there. Again, though, people can make the choice about whether they want to go there - not the same as denying someone their right to education.

Again as demonstrated here there are plenty of people willing themselves up as sacrifice. No one should be forced to have something that lacks long term data against their will. (and yes trying to ban people from society aka schools and social benefits is a form of coercive manipulation against someones autonomy.)

No re schools. Your unvaccinated family could bring the virus in to a school with children and staff who can't for various medical reasons be vaccinated and are doubly vulnerable.

The vaccine, if/when it comes, may lack long term data but so does the virus doesn’t it? We don’t know whether or not there might be eg long term kidney damage, or damage to fertility as can happen with mumps in people who appear to recover.

It’s all new.

I don't think we'll be seeing an effective vaccine any time soon. But I'm with you OP. I'm far from an anti-vaxxer and pro a scientific and medical solution to the pandemic, but I would approach this with caution, and for good reason. I would not discourage others, particularly those who need protection from this virus, to have it as the benefits for them will outweigh the risks.

At the moment, there's plenty of existing and emerging evidence that for those who don't have significant risk factors, good levels of vitamins D and C, as well as zinc and selenium, and a healthy weight, will have some protection over the severe complications associated with the virus. I'll be happy to get a vaccine that's been tried and tested to the same degree all other successful vaccines have but until then, the ever-evolving science behind the likes of Vitamin D levels will do for me.

@bumbleymummy

"I didn’t say they shouldn’t be vaccinated. I said I disagree with it being compulsory. I know quite a few medical professionals who don’t have the flu vaccine and it would be ridiculous if they weren’t allowed to practise because of that. "

Ok let me rephrase because you clearly didn't get what I mean. How can you think it acceptable that a medic who works with immunocompromised people, or babies, or even premie babies, not be vaccinated, and thus risk passing on these diseases to people who will DIE if they get them. And I'm not just talking about flu. What about the MMR or polio. I for one would not allow a doctor near me or my baby who didn't have these vaccination as they pose too much risk.

"Most adults have had CP as children and are immune so no, I don’t think they should have to be vaccinated in order to be a carer."
Ok, proof of vaccination or immunity otherwise acquired, this is what I have, never had the vaccine but did get the immunity test to prove I have it for one job.

"If the rest of your team are vaccinated then you’re not putting them at risk. People should be allowed to weigh up the risk of the disease and the vaccine and make their choice. Most will probably choose to be vaccinated but it should be their decision - not forced on them. "

That's not how it works no vaccine is 100% effective and some people aren't aware of conditions that make vaccines less effective for them. Every unvaccinated person poses a risk to everyone they're with, not just other unvaccinated or vulnerable people. And in the military if you are Ill you do put your whole team at risk as they then have to transport you and all your kit, the idea of leave no man behind. This is why the military mandates vaccinations for all members. It's more than reasonable that if you're too selfish to be vaccinated to protect everyone around you you're too selfish for the military and therefore can't do your job.

Really enjoying all the people trotting out the ‘I will take my chances with the virus’ line. Can you sign a waiver for NHS treatment then please?

Really enjoying all the people trotting out the ‘I will take my chances with the virus’ line. Can you sign a waiver for NHS treatment then please?
Thankfully that’s not what our healthcare system is about

@letitgolego Ok, so which vaccines should be mandatory for HCPs? There are quite a few new ones now that weren’t part of the schedule when I was younger. Actually, there are a few now that weren’t available when my oldest son was a baby and that wasn’t that long ago! So should they have to have every new one that comes along? Are you ok with them choosing not to have the flu vaccine? Would it be right to ask people to vaccinate themselves against something that actually won’t benefit them at all but is purely for the benefit of certain potential patients? Typically we vaccinate to protect ourselves first and foremost and herd immunity is an added extra. Doing something purely for someone else’s benefit starts to raise some ethical issues, don’t you think? Oh, and when my youngest was admitted to hospital the vaccine status of my doctor was the last thing on my mind.

If the vaccinated people are not immune they can also contract the disease and put others in their team at risk then too.

Also -
“ The vaccination programme is voluntary and you will not be forced to have any vaccines if you refuse.”
Army (UK)

@crosstalk

Those ‘unvaccinated for medical reasons’ people could also bring the virus into school and spread it to others. Is that ok?

Doing something purely for someone else’s benefit starts to raise some ethical issues, don’t you think?
Unfortunately a lot of the people on this thread are unable to comprehend medical ethics, consent and autonomy in healthcare provision. They seem to think that just because they’d take the vaccine themselves, we should all have to lest we want our rights taken away.

There are already many people who by your definition are 'coerced' into being vaccinated. Doctors, nurses, pharmacists all have to provide full vaccination history
You provide a history of your vaccinations. You do NOT get coerced into agreeing to vaccinations. Giving a history of vaccinations for occupational health is not the same as facing coercion to consent to vaccinations. That’s not how it works at all.

Doing something purely for someone else’s benefit starts to raise some ethical issues, don’t you think?

So those who are at very low risk of covid/have already had it so probably immune at least for short term, shouldn’t have to stay at home during lockdown for the benefit of those more likely to die from it?

My right to freedom has been severely curtailed by lockdown, is that a reason it shouldn’t happen?

'(and yes trying to ban people from society aka schools and social benefits is a form of coercive manipulation against someones autonomy.)'

I would actually agree that they should not be denied benefits in the sense of child benefit, universal credit, etc. But if they are allowed the freedom to send their kids to school with others, travel on planes, etc., then they are risking OTHER people's life and health, or at the very least the freedom to use public places and travel themselves.

Where does 'autonomy' begin and end for you? Do you also think that people should be allowed to drive 100 miles an hour in the wrong direction on a one-way street in a residential area?

'Doing something purely for someone else’s benefit starts to raise some ethical issues, don’t you think?'

Almost all laws do that! If you're forbidden to commit burglary or assault, it's for the benefit of those who might be burgled or assaulted! If anything ,the laws that might be questioned by those of a more libertarian outlook are those that are mainly to 'save people from themselves': e.g. seatbelt laws, drug use laws.

Have it. Don't have it. It is your choice.

“ So those who are at very low risk of covid/have already had it so probably immune at least for short term, shouldn’t have to stay at home during lockdown for the benefit of those more likely to die from it?”

Umm.. no? If you are already immune you can’t be putting someone at risk by going out. You’re not benefitting anyone by staying at home. In fact, you’re in the best position to get back to work/get the economy going/help those who aren’t immune etc. Isn’t that that the whole point behind antibody testing and the ‘immunity passports’ idea that’s being floated around?

Almost all laws do that! If you're forbidden to commit burglary or assault, it's for the benefit of those who might be burgled or assaulted!
Omg most tenuous link I’ve ever seen 😂😂 Jesus

The point is we don’t know that @bumbleymummy, and immunity passports would incentivise the low risk to catch the virus and totally undermine lockdown. Hence everyone has to comply whether it is for their benefit or not.

The point of lockdown is to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed by too many cases all at once - flattening the curve. It’s not trying to prevent everyone from ever getting it. Low risk people contracting it and gaining immunity would actually be a good thing wrt herd immunity. Once the antibody tests get going we’ll most likely find that quite a few people are already immune anyway. And if exposure to the virus doesn’t make you immune then the vaccine is going to be pretty useless.