Self employed cleaner only going back to clients who have continued to pay/support.

[shonapop]

Seriously considering ditching the people who didn't give a toss. Anyone out there the same?

@SmileyClare, I’m SE too.

I fully agree that if you want some stability, you get employed rather than SE. Nothing to do with CV. It’s a simple fact of being SE.

I have chosen to be SE because it gives me flexibility I wouldn’t have been employed. One that I need for heath reason.
Clients do not owe us, as SE, anything at all. That’s the bottom line. Nothing to do with the pandemic. U could break your leg, get ME (like I have) and a whole of other reasons that will stop you from working for several months. If you haven’t planned that when becoming SE, then you didn’t plan well (as an aside' that means the first I did was to ensure I have 3 months wage set aside on a saving account).

What is the reason for cleaners charging several pounds above NMW

On this I disagree. It’s a market like any other and I pay a good rate because I want it to be a good job. I also want someone on time for the right amount of hours. In London this means paying more than nmw (usually £12 to £15)

I won't bore you with the economics, but small businesses are also essential and very beneficial to the economy.

Spot on.

I have paid my cleaner throughout.

I personally don't feel it is right to require someone to claim from the 80% scheme unless it is actually necessary. Government money isn't free.... it is paid by us all - in this case - for generations to come through cut services, benefit squeezes, cut funding to the NHs, raised taxes, etc. It should be a last resort, not automatic cash cow.

I see no reason why I should add to the huge national bill that loads of underprivileged people will pay a price for - if my salary is continuing and I can continue with my payments to others. To pass off the burden to the government is essentially to profit from this awful crisis, at the expense of us all for generations.

I think those whose finances have not been affected should try really hard to put as much money into the economy as they were before.

YABU

You don't know each individual persons financial situation

I had to accept a 30%-40% "temporary" pay cut and was then furloughed - my income halved overnight and we've had to make savings everywhere - even when I'm back from furlough the temporary pay cut is in place until the company turnover improves which could be months

I haven't been able to pay my cleaner nor will I be until my salary is reinstated

Why would I pay for a service I'm not receiving when the government is helping them to the tune of 80% - pretty sure cleaners earn less than the £30k cap and therefore they'll be getting the full 80% and not 50% like mine

I understand that being employed offers more stability or perhaps financial security, Question And absolutely it is my choice, made for a number of reasons which benefit me.

I think you misunderstood my point, I would rather chew my arm off than ask for retainer payments from clients during this period. I do not expect that.

I an however pissed off with the shitty dismissive attitude of people towards the self employed during a time that is difficult for everyone.. Crowing about Self employed getting what they deserved, insinuating that most self employed are crooked tax evaders and always on threads like these- pointing out that SE are entitled to a furlough scheme so shut up and don't complain.

Many self employed people will fall through the net and not receive government help, through no fault of their own.

I'm also self employed, and I've had no income at all since this started. I'll be applying for the self employment support as soon as its available to me.

Had you been my cleaner, and that was your attitude, you could do one. I'm not sure what I would have been supposed to be paying you with.

Also, my business is on the list of businesses not allowed to open. Yours isn't, so had you wanted to, you could still work.

Smiley why would they fall through the net? Bad timing, starting this year or are you thinking of other factors?

I’m SE, and have been PAYE, I know what benefits it brings me and downsides..

I doubt the income of a cleaner would amount to much with all their lost earnings over the past few months, it’d help but by no means would be enough also they were left high and dry for the few months it’s taken to get the scheme off the ground. Hopefully this week she’ll be able to apply.

Should clarify my comment above is about the grant, I doubt it’ll be much after it’s taxed.

I think you are being unreasonable. How do you know that they ‘didn’t give a toss’? So many people’s financial situations have changed.

Speaking as someone who is self-employed and has lost over 2/3 of my income due to the crisis, I have always thought being self-employed was great due to the flexibility and being your own boss etc. Unfortunately I don’t think any of us could foresee a situation like this where suddenly we are not needed for months at a time. But I do not blame the people I used to work for. Why would I? I’m not doing the work so why should I get paid? I had chosen to work on a self-employed basis and they gave me work on the understanding that I am not an employee. When I had work it was great being able to take time off whenever I needed etc, work extra shifts to save more money and things like that. Sadly I’m having to take the rough with the smooth now but in no way blame my place of work.

You are very lucky that some nice people have still been paying you. But the ones who haven’t are not doing anything wrong.

sounds like you are her employer and should be providing paid holiday, pension contributions etc

That's not how it works at all, SE status isn't defined by how many hours you work for one person/company.

Whoever asked about cleaners charging above minimum wage.. Say you start with 12 p/h. Take out insurance, fuel, products, the one week annual leave I allow myself (can't afford to take more). My accountancy fee (for not working under the radar). I'm working from the moment I arrive at my first client to the time I leave my last. That 12p/h isn't 12 by the time all the deductions are made.

SE status isn't defined by how many hours you work for one person/company.

Is it actually. If you're self employed but carry out all your work for one person then hmrc will argue they are employed by you. To be self employed you need to working for a number of different clients.

There’s a few factors to qualify from SE to employment. A 16 hour cleaner could qualify for part time employed. It would give that extra security the pp mentioned.

I think any self employed worker who discusses ‘ditching’ clients in today’s predicament because them not keeping them on during lockdown suggests they ‘don’t give a toss’ is not the sort of person most people would like to employ.

I didn’t keep my cleaner on because my pay was cut by 50% and the industry I work in is the hardest hit by lockdown, with 1 in 3 expected to lose their jobs. I’ve had family and friend’s deaths to deal with during this time too. If my cleaner spoke about me the way you are writing about your clients, OP, she’d be looking for a new job anyway. But she wouldn’t, because she is lovely and we’ve communicated like adults about the whole situation to come to a solution we both agreed on.

Userxx - no the test is far from being this simple. Working mainly for 1 person could be a factor but there are many others to take into account.

There has been a very generous self employed income replacement scheme. Why can’t you claim?
The self-employed haven't been able to make a claim yet.

The claim system doesn't open for another 2.5hrs (it opens today at midday). Furloughed employed staff have been paid to their usual schedule. The self-employed will not be receiving any payments of support for another 2-4 weeks.

@BraveGoldie....I agree and admire your sentiment completely. But whilst you chose to pay, are you certain that your cleaner did not also claim the govt 80% as well?
This happened to me. I paid someone (A small business) throughout March and April and received no service. In April they wrote to me requesting ongoing support and they and others had 10 kids to support. In early May they wrote again and said service wouldn’t be resumed as most staff were furloughed until further notice. At this point, I stopped payment as I realised they were taking govt support and charging me.
In the background, I’ve take a 25% pay cut myself and am owed thousands by holiday firms.
So I feel I was taken advantage of.

The claim system doesn't open for another 2.5hrs (it opens today at midday)

It opens today for some people. They are staggering it, I can claim tomorrow, then payment I think in six days. So it will still be another two weeks plus before some some period get any money.

...should also add that due to my own paycut and losses that I will not be able to reinstate this service. So OP, yes I think YABVVU.

I'm a self employed cleaner also. None of my clients have paid me either but no way would I ditch them! For whatever reasons they haven't been able or wanted to pay me for this, but I still want their custom after this. I'm starting back with 3 of them next week. The rest I can't start yet for various reasons. I've kept in contact with them snd they all want me back. I would risk ruining my reputation just because they haven't paid me. But that's just me.

OP and other cleaners who feel their clients morally owe them full or part payment during lockdown... Do you not see that at any point, you could decide to suddenly stop cleaning for anyone? You wouldn’t need to give even a days notice and they would have no right to ask for that. So they could have been paying you all through lockdown, only for you to turn round next week and say the job doesn’t suit you anymore and you won’t be returning. This is the deal and your clients know it.

Sorry to shout but - YOU ARE NOT ON A CONTRACT.

If you are a SE cleaner, you are paid for the hours you do. End of. If they wouldn’t normally pay you sick pay or holiday pay, why would this be any different?

If you were a live-in housekeeper or nanny who was on a contract specifying hours, sick pay and holiday, then this would be a different matter. Yet you would also be tied into a notice period and other obligations to the employer. You would have to be PAYE as well.

Can you really not see the difference? You can’t have it both ways.

My cleaner is lovely and had been coming years. But when she came one day and said she was returning to her home country for an indefinite period, that was that. She owes me nothing. I was always very flexible with her and let her set her own hours to a large degree. It was a hassle to get cash out rather than transfer money, but I did that because that was what she wanted. If she wanted an advance I always gave her that and I trusted her not to do a runner, but there’s no way I can afford to pay someone to clean my house when I’m doing it myself.

As a pp said, in normal times, if any of your clients lost their jobs and couldn’t afford to keep you on, would you continue cleaning for them for free on an indefinite period? No I don’t think so.,

And as for the OP taking the decision to not return to certain clients, do you not realise that these same clients may well be wondering how to tell you they can’t afford your services anymore and feeling bad about it. You’d be doing them a favour in this respect.

Same here, Jess I was surprised to see so many posters in March saying they were continuing paying cleaners. Not my experience at all. I didn't expect it. I do however have a good relationship with my customers and they have all been in touch and one has offered me a loan which is kind.
I will go the extra mile for clients that treat me very well; I'll stay late to complete things without charging, I'll feed their goldfish when they're on holiday, that sort of thing.

Cleaners were allowed to work this whole time yes but in practice very very few domestic cleaners did. None of my clients felt they could mix households by having a cleaner in. One of my clients is extremely vulnerable and shielding.

I'm gradually building it up again but it's going to be difficult to manage until I do.
This isn't a pity party. Everyone (self employed or not) has been disastrously affected by this in one way or another.

I do understand to an extent the Op's frustration. She may feel very hurt that long standing clients who she shared a good relationship haven't seemed to care or get in touch, offer any help?
Her anger is misdirected though. No one is obliged to do this.

I work for two families who are staggeringly wealthy. I've never seen such money.
The golden rule for domestic cleaning in my book is to Never get a chip on your shoulder about the apparent wealth of your clients or get bitter about How the other half live. It's not a good mindset. They don't owe you anything more than the rate you charge.