Self employed cleaner only going back to clients who have continued to pay/support.

[shonapop]

Seriously considering ditching the people who didn't give a toss. Anyone out there the same?

To those of you who asked what is different about being a cleaner, I think its because you build a different type of relationship. Those who you have been with sometime anyway.
I am in a huge position of trust and although I am never pally you do build relationships with some clients. I never phoned in sick, never let my clients down, despite often getting short notice cancellations from a few persistent offenders. I realise I'm not valued as much as I thought I might have been. I know I do a good job. I've been doing it for over ten years with clients dating back to the beginning.
Fwiw I offered to give both my personal trainer and hairdresser money for stuff I had booked in, which they declined and I have kept in touch.
I'll say it again for those of you that missed it. Most cleaners, if not all, that I know don't work cash in hand. I don't accept cash, the reason they don't is that they have to demonstrate their working hours to access in work benefits.

@shonapop You haven’t answered. Are you or are you not eligible for the self employed grant? That would make a big difference to whether or not I would pay you.

I know my cleaner is entitled to it. I have not paid her and she has not asked.

DH is still working but I am a company director with my own company so not eligible for anything as I can’t furlough myself for three weeks at a time but my income is about 25% of what it was this month last year. I very much doubt my cleaner would realise that. On the outside it would look the same as always. Do I have to explain my personal finances to her?

There is a HUGE difference between an anonymous service provided via an agency, a person who's come to your home 3 or 4 times, or a long-standing relationship you've had with someone over the course of many years.

No - not necessarily. I have used an agency since 1990. Other than holiday cover, I have had precisely x2 cleaners during this period

Op, only 2 of my 30 odd clients offered to pay. I didn't take it. Of those who did not offer, the elderly and less well off I can fully understand. The ones who texted and told me they were working from home on full pay and they didn't want me in the house, well my opinion on them certainly changed. These texts were all received before the government had even mentioned any scheme for the self employed, so all around the 21st-23rd March. Clients didn't give much consideration to me at all and all are well off

I haven't yet decided what to do, but some will be sacked.

Such entitlement and a wilful misunderstanding of self employment.

I trust you have been paying your hairdresser, nail technician, the window cleaner or gardener you might have used

This is a genuine question, but what is the going hourly rate for a cleaner? NMW, which covers a lot of essential jobs and which is probably what almost all employed cleaners are on, is £8.72, but I tend to hear figures upwards of £10, often £12-£14 for SE cleaners.

Employed people on NMW have to pay tax and NI on that £8.72 per hour, once they've exceeded their personal tax-free allowance, as well as it having to cover their travel and other in-work-related costs.

Assuming that all SE cleaners declare all of their earnings and pay all due tax and NI (and I'm sure that plenty do but plenty also do not), what would be the reason for them charging often several pounds above NMW if not exactly for the reason that SE income is not always regular, is never guaranteed and also has to cover sickness, other fallow times and holiday pay? I know that nobody could have predicted COVID, but nobody can predict most sickness and accidents, so is the extra hourly going rate not significantly higher precisely to allow for and provide a buffer zone for such uncertainties?

Cleaning is often seen differently on here to other SE services. Why is that

I suspect firstly it’s because there are very few other SE service providers with whom you have a regular long term commitment.

Secondly in many cases the difference between the situation of a cleaner and the person availing of the services is huge.

I’ve been paying my cleaner because she relies on the money. And whilst paying her wouldn’t alter my financial situation in any meaningful way not paying her would certainly alter hers.

I haven't yet decided what to do, but some will be sacked.

Tootsey11 You can’t sack them, you don’t employ them.

You don’t actually seem to understand what being self-employed means.

If you are not providing a service, you ought not to be paid for that service. It is not your clients responsibility to manage your finances, that is your own.

If you don’t like the uncertainty of being self employed I suggest you take up regular employment.

I suspect firstly it’s because there are very few other SE service providers with whom you have a regular long term commitment.

Hair stylists, nail and beauty technicians/therapists/stylists, taxi drivers, window cleaners, mechanics, gardeners, milkmen etc. etc.

But the whole point is that there is no actual commitment, just a long-term custom. You can cancel/stop using any of these people any time you like.

My bf is a s/e cleaner. She has earnt nothing these last few months of course, and couldn't get the compensation from the Government as she hasn't been doing it long enough to file a return yet. Her dh is getting 80% so they can just about manage. She's going to stagger going back to work nevertheless,, as she cares for her mum who needs to shield, and because one of her children is vulnerable (but not shielding, hence her need to return pt only until she can go back to school).

Sadly, none of her clients have been able to pay her for the months of lockdown, but some have been more helpful than others and given her foodstuffs instead (inadequate, but it has been helpful). Those are the clients she'll be going back to first. Can't say I blame her either.

Exactly,,@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll!

Hair stylists, nail and beauty technicians/therapists/stylists, taxi drivers, window cleaners, mechanics, gardeners, milkmen etc. etc

Whilst I am sure there are exceptions people don’t generally visit their beauty therapist or use a taxi driver for the same slot every week. A milkman is providing you with goods so is not comparable.

I agree that there is no legal commitment, but there’s often a moral one. Either because of the disparity of income and need - very very few people using a cleaner are in a worse economic position than the cleaner.

In my case my cleaner started doing 6 hours a week for me. She now does min 16. She gave up other jobs and put her eggs (mostly) in one basket. The least I can do is treat her decently.

‘Seriously considering ditching the people who didn't give a toss’?

You are self employed. Did you show them any flexibility or offer alternative service? Outside jobs are allowed - clean windows, clean cars, spot of gardening? If you are after job security you should consider public sector work.

There’s something really distasteful about the way the “what about the govt 80%” is rolled on these threads as some sort of gotcha.

Most people know that there are huge numbers of cleaners (likely the majority?) working cash in hand. They’re usually women with very few choices: they might have a lack of employment history, poor English or extensive caring responsibilities.

So of course many won’t be entitled to anything. That doesn’t mean they deserve to starve.

I have no idea if my cleaner pays tax. I haven’t asked. But if she doesn’t I couldn’t care less. If she does and she’s sitting at home with her feet up throwing £20 notes on the fire and laughing at her good fortune at being paid twice over, well I also couldn’t care less.

OP I understand why you feel the way you do and won't get into whether I agree or disagree because it's not really relevant, but just bear in mind that of the clients you acquire to replace the current ones, some will be of exactly the same mindset as the ones you replaced and wouldn't choose to pay you if this situation were to happen again 🤷🏼‍♀️

She now does min 16. She gave up other jobs and put her eggs (mostly) in one basket. The least I can do is treat her decently.

Employing her on a part time basis would have given her this security you want her to have. The hours are high.

@PegasusReturns - sounds like you are her employer and should be providing paid holiday, pension contributions etc

@marshabradyo perhaps. I’ve been meaning to look into it but I know from years ago when I had a nanny that took another PT job the tax implications were complicated. It’s on the never ending list of things to do.

All of the posters saying how “easily available” cleaners are; that they’re “not skilled”, “ten a penny” have you just been really lucky or have you actually never had a cleaner?!

Over the years I’ve had far more awful cleaners than I have had good ones. Good cleaners are like gold dust where I live.

@aridane

I’m not her employer. She does more hours for me than any other single family. But she cleans more hours for other people in total than she does for me.

Outside jobs are allowed

Cleaners are allowed to work in people’s houses as long as they’re well (and the people in the house are well) and they can socially distance. It’s in the government guidance. There have been quite a few threads on it now. Did you offer to keep working for them or did you decide to stop working?

I find the level of entitlement on here quite odd. If you want things like sick pay, holiday pay or furlough, you know what to do - join an agency

This. There are so many benefits of being SE - choosing who you work for, when you work, where you work, what holidays you take. A massive amount of flexibility that few PAYE jobs offer.

This is the downside. If people stop paying or business dries up, your income stops or reduces.

SE people are running their own business. It’s THEIR responsibility to have contingencies for the bad times, ensure overheads are met etc, not clients’ jobs to prop them up and par for services not received.

And there’s no point banging on about how this is a pandemic and unforseen. What if you’d fallen over and broken your leg and needed 6 weeks off?

I think what this shows is that there are a lot or SE people who were poorly prepared in general for any disruption.

Not all self rmployed people are running their own business. Jobs like newspaper rounds , leaflet distribution etc are often treated as self employed so the poor teen , housewife, retired person often earn minimum wage if they are lucky. A fruend does one witb hwr teen and they haven't even been paid for the one thehmy did before lockdown and again no history to get the amazingly generous self employed furlough which in fact is crap compared to the support available for business owners and the empkoyed .

What is the reason for cleaners charging several pounds above NMW

I work as a cleaner and it's a very physical job. I also spend time travelling between clients. The result is that a cleaner could never work full time hours say 9-5 like you could in other NMW roles. I'd be on my knees.
I charge £12 an hour for a good service.

On an average day , a 3 bed detached house would take me 3-4hrs to clean thoroughly.
That's £48.

I then walk to my next clients house, an elderly lady who needs me for 1 hr. I charge her £10 an hour and dust, mop, clean bathrooms and change her bedding. Usually I spend an hour afterwards having a cup of tea with her and chatting. That's £10

That would be a days work and would have earned me £58 less expenses. And I despite being very fit, I'm absolutely shattered after that. I think most people who tried 5 hours non stop cleaning would be. It can't be compared to sitting in an office or working in a shop (for e.g..) where I could easily work much longer hours.

There's a strange inference on here that cleaners are ripping their customers off by charging more than NMW or that they should easily have savings or be able to cope because their hourly rate is slightly higher?

Cleaning is "unskilled" work but I think decent cleaners have the ability and experience to achieve a high standard of work. It requires a skill set.

If you don't like the uncertainty of being self employed, I suggest you take up regular employment

I hate this shit attitude to the self employed. The uncertainty at the moment is due to a global pandemic. Who the fuck takes a pandemic into account when considering being a sole trader? Even self employed insurance won't cover it.

I won't bore you with the economics, but small businesses are also essential and very beneficial to the economy.

Couldn’t give a toss or in just as difficult a position as you? That’s what I’d consider.
The first group, absolutely.

@Jellykat
Laughing at people saying they haven't kept in touch with their hairdresser, physio etc.. they have many customers on their books you know!.. but employers usually only have one cleaner, so obviously the relationship is a little more personal, especially as they work in your home.

Actually, physios for example will have a very close relationship with their client, ending up knowing a hell of a lot about them, their family etc... it is in some ways a much closer relationship than a cleaner can have (where they will often never see the people in the house anyway).
Yes they have more clients. They are also much more likely to have kept in touch with them, sending them emails, videos etc... to help them during this crisis. I haven’t seen anything like this from cleaners.
And that’s despite the fact they have much much more to loose than a physio BECAUSE they have less clients in on their books so loosing one will make a huge difference to them.

What I see on MN and in RL is SE knowing that people coming to see them are CLIENTS and therefore are looking after them. Whereas some cleaners seem to think that that a lot of things are due and it’s their clients that should be looking after them, as if they were employed (which they are not). See holiday pay, pay during the CV crisis, etc etc...

Weird...

What if you'd fallen over and broken your leg and needed six weeks off? if your own SE insurance doesn't cover losses then you could apply for ESA (self employed sick pay) in that situation.

None of those benefits apply to our current pandemic.