No tax credits for the third child. Does that mean some women will never be able to work?

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I just wondered if someone could explain it to me. I realise I'm being a bit thick.

Imagine someone who is still on tax credits, not UC. They have 5 children, 3 of which were born after the 3rd child cut off date for tax credits.

Single mum and she wants to go to work for the first time since the first child was born (this is a completely fictional person by the way).
If they don't have tax credits for the third fourth and fifth child, does that mean she wouldn't be able to work? Because she wouldn't have money for childcare?

How does that work?

I refuse to believe that you live in the uK and had no idea that benefits, including child benefit, went up as family size did.

I wouldn't say thick exactly no, just attempting a really very unsubtle attempt and sarcasm/disingenuousness. Slash condescension of course

CTC aren't being taken away from children born before the cut off, the notice for the cut off was a year so everyone knew that if they had a third child conceived after the cut off that they wouldn't get CTC, surely?

I had four kids under seven at one point and still managed to work nightshifts around my husbands work from when they were 6 months old. I was totally knackered though. Didn't claim any benefits.

Surely you would get help via tax free childcare regardless so look into that. The rules were already in place tho before you had your third as it's been in place for quite a few years.

I don’t get this. Tax credits aren’t there specifically for childcare are they?

I work and I don’t get tax credits - because I earn too much but I do see why the two go hand in hand?

The argument that people "fall on hard times" and therefore can no longer cope with FIVE children completely baffles me.

I mean, isn't it obvious that more than doubling the next generation of your family is something that leaves you financially vulnerable? That you are x5 your financial difficulties that are associated with kids normally? That it might require 5x the safety net of a one kid family?

I can't imagine how financially secure I'd have to feel to think FIVE children wasn't a risky business financially.

I can't imagine how financially secure I'd have to feel to think FIVE children wasn't a risky business financially
That exactly. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out that each additional child is an additional risk. Who can be certain that things will not change for the worse? And work out that the more children you gave, the harder it will be to support them all?

If they don't have tax credits for the third fourth and fifth child, does that mean she wouldn't be able to work? Because she wouldn't have money for childcare?

She would be able to go to work but she'd have to do what most people and earn enough to support their family. If necessary she can wait until more of the children are at school.

Financially secure for me looked like joint income of over £100,000 a year. Mortgage less than 2x income, school fees paid 12 months in advance. It can turn to shit very quickly. He lost his job, then ducked off. My salary which was 50% then didn’t cover the mortgage and the childcare.

I believe that you can still claim the childcare element for all children. You’d also be able to get 30hr funding at 3 if you were working the hours required.

I think childcare funding and tax credits are two separate things. Tax credits isnt "to pay childcare". They introduced childcare funding some years ago, for every child. Think it's up to 30 hours a week?
And surely women can work if they earn enough to pay for childcare? Not all women earn low figure salaries or rely on tax credits. I think the moral of the story is, if you cant afford to work with 3 kids, dont have 3 kids.

I saw on here a mum of two pondering whether to have a baby with her new partner. No one even brought up the issue that if she was left alone again the severe financial implications it may have. It doesn't apply to everyone but I wouldn't consider a third child today unless I was very financially secure and even then I doubt I would because CV has shown us unless you have a private income or trust fund there really is no such thing.

If a single parent, then work at home, or within school hours, until the youngest is at secondary school.
If part of a couple, then there is also the option to work in different shifts.

I hope all the mc losing their jobs and homes will be happy to be told, "don't have kids you can't afford*
For some reason they seem to think their jobs are safe. Or, that the unexpected (corona) won't happen to them.
One recession a whole level of middle management went from finance, across the board, thousands redundant.
Nobody is irreplaceable.

OP, as some of the PPs have said, in the UK, I don't think UC/CTC are specifically intended to cover child care tough, to be fair, I haven't reread the original policy intent. Rather, you might want to check payments for approved childcare and what payments are available in your region with regards to the ages of your children and approved childcare - is this link any help though you will probably have found yourself.

dwww.gov.uk/childcare-calculator?step-by-step-nav=f237ec8e-e82c-4ffa-8fba-2a88a739783b

It'll be no consolation but you might find it astonishing how some people will expect you to have employed perfect clairvoyance to determine you and your spouses employment/business success and health/mortality before embarking on reproduction. I suspect that the results of COVID will help some of them to become more open-minded as experience hits them square in the face. The others will put their employment or business not crashing or spouse not dying down to their superior abilities and morality and reinforce their belief that others are just feckless or irresponsible.

Good luck.

I don’t get this. Tax credits aren’t there specifically for childcare are they?

The childcare element is specifically for childcare, yes. You don't get it unless you submit childcare costs from a registered provider and they will pay up to 70% (UC pays up to 80)

I hope all the mc losing their jobs and homes will be happy to be told, "don't have kids you can't afford

I literally don't know any middle class professionals with five kids. Middle class professionals tend to care about things like each child having their own bedroom, being able to go on family holidays, maybe even private school, and so they tend to decide they can't afford five kids.

To go back to your question OP. Tax credits haven’t always existed. I, and many others on MN, had our babies back in the day before tax credits existed. Before any free early years care existed.

Basically, you live within your means, and although no one can see what’s round the corner, you take ‘possibles’ into account. Anyone having 5 children must be pretty confident that they can either command a good enough income to pay for a nanny, or be sufficiently well off to house, clothe and feed 5 children while being a SAHP ...
if you’re talking about an imaginary person who has lived beyond her means, continued to have kids without working but then magically expects a job to land in her lap the moment she’s bored - then yeah, she probably won’t be able to work

They introduced childcare funding some years ago, for every child. Think it's up to 30 hours a week? Your confusing it with the free hours for pre school children. Tax credits will pay a percentage of breakfast and after school care for school age kids and pay any hours needed on top of the free provision for early years or before eligibility for the 3 year old hours

I know plenty of ‘middle class professionals’ with multiple children. Many who have U.K. holidays and more than one child to a room.
What a ridiculous assumption that certain classes always stick to smaller families

It really pees me off the way some people take the pizz by spewing a bunch of kids and then expecting those of us who made less selfish decisions to keep them for the remainder of their lazy lives. Two children is enough for anone

Tax credits were introduced to tackle existing child poverty. The eventual aim of the policy was that tax credits would no longer be needed because child poverty would be addressed through raising the minimum wage.

This thread won’t go down well at all, can already see the direction it’s headed. High and mighty sanctimonious MNers will start shouting about contraception and anyone who has more than two children being a prick. Pointless really.

It's very hard trying to find child care even when children are of school age there's a week or two off school every half term and again at the end of term, 6 weeks off in the summer and teacher training days or children off sick or appointments.

I would struggle with more than 2.
I do now work evenings so dh can look after dc as he works fixed day hours but I realise how fortunate we are to be able to do this and it must be hard for single parents or parents working shifts or a rota especially if like us we have no family around us so if school rings you need an understanding employer who will let you leave if you have to.
I know I would have to cope but I would struggle with that many children.